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Old 02-04-2008, 07:03 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by JevUK View Post
If a tc driver wants to have a go of pro10 you are putting a big discouragement factor on him by forcing him to buy new nimh packs. Removing 2 cell is not going to work then you end up with lots of odd pairs of cells.

It seems to me we have a very vocal 12th/oval crowed here who do not think outside of that bubble.
WHO'S not thinking outside the box? If battery packs are THE sticking point for someone not changing all they have to remember is that two 6-cell packs equal THREE 4-cell packs. Wave your magic soldering wand (Harry Potter wishes he had one of those) over your battery packs....VIOLA!!!

Oh, and when you mention "LeMans" to "vocal oval" crowds they think you're talking about a Pontiac...most recently a cheap Pontiac of Korean origins.
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Old 02-04-2008, 07:28 AM   #287
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Why does it matter if pro10 is faster or slower than TC's?

The object is to get as many people doing it with maximum fun and fairness.

If a tc driver wants to have a go of pro10 you are putting a big discouragement factor on him by forcing him to buy new nimh packs. Removing 2 cell is not going to work then you end up with lots of odd pairs of cells.

It seems to me we have a very vocal 12th/oval crowed here who do not think outside of that bubble.

Now we have very nicely matched 19t/10.5 it's gota be a no brainer. The power will be comparable to the days when we had national in the uk and we were running 10-14 turn motors. The speeds were fine, that's not the reason it died. It's just that TC boomed and took everyone away. It was like a fashion thing.

When I tried 4 cell mod there was nothing wrong with how the car handled or the speed. It was a nice amount of power. But not wanting to EVER run nimh's again 19t lipo will do me fine .

We will probably be racing a RWD class at West London again this summer. It's open to anything rwd. Tamiya f1's even. We had tamiya f103, f1's 235mm pro10's all together. It was like a true le mans atmosphere .
Your right it shouldnt matter just making a point that we dont want the class to be faster then it should. The Idea is to lower operating cost, like scottrik said wave the magic wand and presto chango you now have 3 packs.

If you really knew about thinking out of the box you would realize that we have imbraced lipo in this country (I was against lipo as others were), these guys trying to get this new class going know what they are doing. Some of the biggest names in the business are trying to save what little of this hobby/sport is left, and if four cell pancar will make the amount of entries grow I am for it( mind you I was against 4 cell anything also ).

What's better showing up to a track to race 20 people or have 80 to 100+ competitors?

If lipo stays then a comaprible power plant should be used. Maybe this 4 cell thing would force a battery manufacture to design and produce a four cell lipo equivalent. If they loose (revenue) sales I am sure they would supply us with what we need.

But for now let the class start and see what happens!
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Old 02-04-2008, 08:03 AM   #288
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About your other post # 278 to Adrian. We where faster with the equipment in the 90's ,so why not now with modern 2008 equipment?
The pan cars are way lighter then a tourer, shouldn't the pancar be faster?

With no disrespect to your driving, a pancer with 7.4v lipo battery and 10.5 brushless motor should kill the tourer. A properly set up pancar with someone that knows how not to scrub speed coming out of a corner will out run the tourer everywhere. Its very easy to scrub speed on a foam car.

Also nothing wrong with coral springs you just can't get a proper feel on a green track with no groove. come mierda !!! Take it lightly!! you still suck pipe banger! bro'de ponte las pilas!!!! No choques tanto!!! Dame un timbre!!
Of course you were faster than TC's even back in the 90's and early 2K. Again, not saying anything against that at all...but TC back and the motors and batteries in those days was nothing like what there is available today, for both types of cars- its relative. So comparing 1990's pan car speed and performance versus today's modern TCs and brushless motors and Lipo and pro lelvel Nimh packs, will not be the same. TC's have gotten faster, and the 27T brushed motors of of 5 years ago, are slower than todays 27T brushed motors, or 13.5 brushless. The same for mod brushed motors of 5-10 years ago...today's 10.5BL motors or good Komodo 19T will probably be faster than the mod motors of 6-7 yrs ago. We need to compare today's pan 1/10 cars with today's brushless and Lipo tech, versus todays 4wd pro level TC's and tech...I've done that and can confirm, as repeatedly stated here, that a 1/10 pan car, wide or narrow, on 7.4 lipo and 10.5BL motors, is FASTER PER LAP than an very good TC with 4.5T BL and Lipo or Nimh, yet its much easier to drive than a 1/10 TC with 4.5-3.5 motors since they are not as fast down the straight, which will make it adequate for a mod pro-ten 200mm pan car class, since its not "ballistic" down the straight as the older gen pan cars were being pushed to, causing all the pblms they did at those insane speeds. Those who run 1/12 on-road and use 13.5 or 10.5 motors should not be afraid of the speed of a 10.5BL and 7.4V lipo or 6 cell pan car, since they are probaly faster anyways with their little 1/12 pan car with 4 cell and 19T than TC's, and just as fast or maybe even a bit quicker than 1/10 ProTen Pan car with the same motor and 7.4v Lipo or 6 cell nimh.

Also, a 1/12 19T or 10.5BL pan car, will probably still be faster than a 4 cell 10.5BL or 19T 1/10 pan car down the straight plus over all. a 1/10 pan car is a bit heavier than a 1/12 pan car, and if they are equipped with the same motor and electronics, a 1/12 will beat a 1/10 pan car, since its lighter and has a less rotational mass with those smaller tires and lighter rear axle, etc...

Also, at COral springs I've tested and worked both clean sugar watered track, and green surfaces and had to learn how the car handles and behaves in both and what to do to make them work on both...If I recall I consulted with you about set up a few times and you gave me some good tips, which have been appreciated, as I've told you...

I dont hit walls no more...pipes either, come gofio Things have changed quite a bit, consorte
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Old 02-04-2008, 08:19 AM   #289
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Of course you were faster than TC's even back in the 90's and early 2K. Again, not saying anything against that at all...but TC back and the motors and batteries in those days was nothing like what there is available today, for both types of cars- its relative. So comparing 1990's pan car speed and performance versus today's modern TCs and brushless motors and Lipo and pro lelvel Nimh packs, will not be the same. TC's have gotten faster, and the 27T brushed motors of of 5 years ago, are slower than todays 27T brushed motors, or 13.5 brushless. The same for mod brushed motors of 5-10 years ago...today's 10.5BL motors or good Komodo 19T will probably be faster than the mod motors of 6-7 yrs ago. We need to compare today's pan 1/10 cars with today's brushless and Lipo tech, versus todays 4wd pro level TC's and tech...I've done that and can confirm, as repeatedly stated here, that a 1/10 pan car, wide or narrow, on 7.4 lipo and 10.5BL motors, is FASTER PER LAP than an very good TC with 4.5T BL and Lipo or Nimh, yet its much easier to drive than a 1/10 TC with 4.5-3.5 motors since they are not as fast down the straight, which will make it adequate for a mod pro-ten 200mm pan car class, since its not "ballistic" down the straight as the older gen pan cars were being pushed to, causing all the pblms they did at those insane speeds. Those who run 1/12 on-road and use 13.5 or 10.5 motors should not be afraid of the speed of a 10.5BL and 7.4V lipo or 6 cell pan car, since they are probaly faster anyways with their little 1/12 pan car with 4 cell and 19T than TC's, and just as fast or maybe even a bit quicker than 1/10 ProTen Pan car with the same motor and 7.4v Lipo or 6 cell nimh.

Also, a 1/12 19T or 10.5BL pan car, will probably still be faster than a 4 cell 10.5BL or 19T 1/10 pan car down the straight plus over all. a 1/10 pan car is a bit heavier than a 1/12 pan car, and if they are equipped with the same motor and electronics, a 1/12 will beat a 1/10 pan car, since its lighter and has a less rotational mass with those smaller tires and lighter rear axle, etc...

Also, at COral springs I've tested and worked both clean sugar watered track, and green surfaces and had to learn how the car handles and behaves in both and what to do to make them work on both...If I recall I consulted with you about set up a few times and you gave me some good tips, which have been appreciated, as I've told you...

I dont hit walls no more...pipes either, come gofio Things have changed quite a bit, consorte
Just give it a rest, I tried to do the same but hey, 4 cell is the way to go according to some people and they wont change they're mind. they went to 5 cell in touring here in Europe and guess what. people are driving 3.5BL now and wont even reach 5 minutes with 4600mAh batteries.
If you want to slow cars down, limit the turns or go to 8 minute races, do not limit the batteries.

But who am I to speak up, only been racing 16 years. Havent won any races so I prolly dont know what an esc is let alone know something about batteries, handling,....
Leave it to the pro's to decide it all.
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Old 02-04-2008, 08:21 AM   #290
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Thank you Hector this Yohan guy is an expert - just because he's tested it means it true. Exaltly how many state , Regional or Nationals races have you ever run? Your just a local racer in southern Florida.I don't claim to be an expert but knows what has worked in the past- why it died in the past and what the new manufacturers would like see happen.Until most of us see your name practicpating in any of the events list above your just talk.
Hey XXXXXX edit by mod no one is claiming to be expert on anything. I am stating what i've found out on my nearly year of testing with my own modern day 1/10 200mm pan car 235 wides, with BL and Lipo, which has allowed me to learn for my self, a bit of how they work and feel, and why I think we should not be afraid of 1/10 pan car with 10.5BL and 7.4 Lipo or 6 cell nimh of it being ballistic or as dangerous as in the 1990's and early 2K when MOD motors were run on the 1/10 pan cars and they'd be hitting over 60mph and more...that's not going to happen with 1/10 pan car and 7.4v/6cell nimh and 10.5 or 19T motors---you get that, professor?

Have you run or tested a pan car in the last year or two with todays Lipo or nimh and 10.5BL or 19T motors? Probaly not, and that's why you cant speak on the topic, cause you have no experience on the matter, therefore cant give an educated opinion---get yourself a 1/10 pan car, test with many tires combos, motors, batteies, set up, etc...get over 50 runs on them, and then come on here and talk and take cheap shots at me all you want...untill then---keep reading, maybe you'll learn a thing a two about pan cars

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Old 02-04-2008, 08:36 AM   #291
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Nice and constructive...
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Old 02-04-2008, 08:37 AM   #292
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Your right it shouldnt matter just making a point that we dont want the class to be faster then it should. The Idea is to lower operating cost, like scottrik said wave the magic wand and presto chango you now have 3 packs.

If you really knew about thinking out of the box you would realize that we have imbraced lipo in this country (I was against lipo as others were), these guys trying to get this new class going know what they are doing. Some of the biggest names in the business are trying to save what little of this hobby/sport is left, and if four cell pancar will make the amount of entries grow I am for it( mind you I was against 4 cell anything also ).

What's better showing up to a track to race 20 people or have 80 to 100+ competitors?

If lipo stays then a comaprible power plant should be used. Maybe this 4 cell thing would force a battery manufacture to design and produce a four cell lipo equivalent. If they loose (revenue) sales I am sure they would supply us with what we need.

But for now let the class start and see what happens!
Hector,

here's the pblm...2 camps want to race the 1/10 pan cars:

a) 1/12 pan car guys, which run with 4 cell, and dont want to spend money on a Lipo. They want to push the 4 cell config so they save money and not have to spend a dime on running their 200mm pan car, exept for just tires and few spares parts.

b) the TC camp. Those of us who run TC's, and especially run with Lipo now a days, dont want to have to buy 4 cell nihm packs, and all the gadgets to it takes to keep them in tip top condition- its a waste of money in my eyes, and a regression in many eyes of those who have moved on to BL and Lipo. We'd like to keep running our 7.4V Lipo,a dn 10.5 or 13.5BL motors...why should we have to spend money on new 4 cell nimh packs and have to buy equipment to run these packs properly, when we have just run our Lipos and BL motors?

On that note, I'm stating that based on my data, to calm the fears of some that stated that 10.5BL and 7.4v are way too fast, that its not so...but even if you think its way too fast, then at least a 13.5 or 17.5 BL and 7.4 should be considered. Its cheaper in the long run and much easier for new people to enjoy and maintain. You can run over 20 minutes on 7.4v Orion 4800 pack and 10.5 BL...with one pack you can easily do three six minutes qual runs, charge, and run a couple 10 minute mains...and the Lipos will last for years...that's all I'm suggesting and that's I'd try to lobby for down here at our local track.

Also, I dont think a CRC Pantoura or the new CRC Gen 10X pan car is something for newbies! Dont give a novice such a machine to "bash" around or start club racing with...for that give them Speed Spec or Tamiya F103GT...or ready to run losi XXX-S or TC4
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Old 02-04-2008, 08:46 AM   #293
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I agree. I don't care if the Pro 10 cars are faster or slower than anything else. For me, it's the ease of maintenance, lower cost of motors/batteries, and lower cost of purchasing the car (if that happens) that appeals to me. If I want to run around the track really fast, I'll run a 6 cell mod car. But, I've been through the battery and motor wars, and I don't care to go down that path again any time soon.
Exactly...I think that the TC racers, especially the ones in in my area and state, are increasingly going to Lipo and brushless. For the many who have made the upgrade to BL and Lipo, we'd like to continue using our Lipo and BL, that's all...so we're making our class based and such motor and Lipo, which is much cheaper in the long run than using nimh, which is not as popular down here anyways...

Check out the ROAR regionals a few months ago, and what will go on at the FSEARA races this year, and you'll notice that many very good drivers have now BL and LIpo, and will keep growing.
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Old 02-04-2008, 08:58 AM   #294
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Personally, I keep coming back to the viewpoint of someone getting into the hobby for the first time (or someone like me getting back into it after several years). I have to buy everything from scratch, so it doesn't matter to me if they run NiMH or LiPo. What matters to me is how much I'm going to have to spend to get up and running and to keep it running. No matter what the rules are there will be people who will complain. But, if the manufacturers are really trying to target this class at the newcomer, and using it as an "inexpensive" class, then they need to keep that in mind. Racers who are interested in racing a class will do whatever they need to do anyways.
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Old 02-04-2008, 10:03 AM   #295
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Personally, I keep coming back to the viewpoint of someone getting into the hobby for the first time (or someone like me getting back into it after several years). I have to buy everything from scratch, so it doesn't matter to me if they run NiMH or LiPo. What matters to me is how much I'm going to have to spend to get up and running and to keep it running. No matter what the rules are there will be people who will complain. But, if the manufacturers are really trying to target this class at the newcomer, and using it as an "inexpensive" class, then they need to keep that in mind. Racers who are interested in racing a class will do whatever they need to do anyways.
True...for those completely new to the hobby- who have to start from scratch, there a few routs to consider:

1) its better for them to start out with something like a Tamiya F103GT or cheap pan car like the Speedmerchant SpeedSpec.

Car:...................SpeedMerchant or F103GT........$140-150
Motors:...............Use black or silver can motors- $12-$14
ESC....................LRP or novak have cehap ESCs for around $40-$50
Batteries.............6 cell stick packs
Servo.................cheap $20 servo
Charger..............cheap $60 Prophet II charger
Radio.................cheap FM radio and RX combo, with glitching issues...

they will run with his for a few months, then want to upgrade, and have thrown this money away on the cheap stuff...

I'd rather have them at least get a good lipo, or a few 4cell nimh packs, with a good charger like an ICE, and a Futaba 3PM 2.4ghz $180 radio, or Airtronics 2.4ghz radio, and have them enjoy glitch free driving and having good lipos they can use for years with proper care. Much easier in my mind and more money saved in the long run...

2) have them start out witht he right equipment since the beginning...it doesnt have to be the greatest and latest, but at least Spektrum radio, a good Lipo and charger, and a good set of basic tools, BL motor- 17.5 or 21.5 or 13.5, etc...no money wasted and much better performance and much less maintanance.
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Old 02-04-2008, 10:45 AM   #296
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I think that LiPo and 21.5 would probably be fine for stock class. Might even be able to mix them with 4 cell 17.5 or something to keep the number of classes down. There are still a lot of guys out there that don't have LiPo chargers and can't (or don't want to) make the switch yet.

I think that mod should be 4 cell. Nothing more.
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Old 02-04-2008, 11:03 AM   #297
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Way to go you've got to call me a _______ and say I have no experience.
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Old 02-04-2008, 11:31 AM   #298
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Just give it a rest, I tried to do the same but hey, 4 cell is the way to go according to some people and they wont change they're mind. they went to 5 cell in touring here in Europe and guess what. people are driving 3.5BL now and wont even reach 5 minutes with 4600mAh batteries.
If you want to slow cars down, limit the turns or go to 8 minute races, do not limit the batteries.

But who am I to speak up, only been racing 16 years. Havent won any races so I prolly dont know what an esc is let alone know something about batteries, handling,....
Leave it to the pro's to decide it all.

Quante, the only reason I suggested 4 cell is that I want this to be a fun class and not just another speed war. The VTA boys (I know I keep going back to them) run 8 minute mains. Who is to say that this class couldnt run 8 minute mains? As I said a few pages back, I had not addressed things like race lengths yet because I did not see that as one of the major pressing issues in getting this off the ground.

Bullfrog, yyhayim and speedxl, could you take your little personal battle to PMs because this sort of thing is really not necessary in a public discussion.

Unregistered, 21.5 or 17.5 would be a good option as well. I think that having a singular motor on the brushed and brushless side keeps the speeds at an enjoyable level, and also can tend to keep the relative costs down in the initial growing stages. Once the class starts to get a foothold, then we can look at something like that. This should be the kind of class where the guys are on the stand having a good time but still getting some good racing in.
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Old 02-04-2008, 11:33 AM   #299
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It seems to me we have a very vocal 12th/oval crowed here who do not think outside of that bubble.
I'm left handed, so I can think outside the bubble.....

To be honest I have more wheel time behind a Sedan TC than my 1:12 or 1:10 oval cars. I still own my original three TC3's (Dirt oval, asphalt, carpet) and I have two Xarys T2's (Asphalt and Carpet)

Having driven both and comparing the car setups the PRO10's need to be 4-cell. This car does not need to be alienated from its family(1:12's and 1:10 oval) When technology finds a replacement for the 4-cell pack I am sure all the classes will change over at the same time. Right now 7.4V lipo is not a good solution for any of the pan cars.

I am sure there will be more 1:12 or Oval guys buying PRO10's than Sedan guys the first few years. Sedan racers will continue to run sedans untill their parts stash runs dry. Then they will covert to PRO10 or buy a new sedan. Right now with the cost of sedans being high, most casual or club racers will just stick with what they have.
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Old 02-04-2008, 12:33 PM   #300
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I have been watching this thread and the vintage thread for a little while now with interest in both/either as a new or replacement class at our local track and had a thought..

Why not work with the Vintage series that is trying to start up also? These seem like the perfect cars for the Vintage Series class....Rwd, 200mm+...
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