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Old 02-02-2008, 06:39 AM   #256
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Ya'll have put the cart before the horse. Until the cars are out there running your just spinning you tires. Making rules before 99% of you have even run the car is _________.:
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Old 02-02-2008, 06:44 AM   #257
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I think that this class needs to be LiPo friendly to succeed. I am ready to get back into electric racing, but I have no interest in going back to NiMH. I'm sure that there could be a motor choice and FDR that would make 2s LiPo fairly equivalent to some NiMH set up.

It will probably take a year to customize a set of rules that would be compatible with bringing the largest number of people into the races and still feel relatively competitive. I think natural classes, if necessary, would fall out of this process.
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Old 02-02-2008, 07:17 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by BullFrog View Post
Ya'll have put the cart before the horse. Until the cars are out there running your just spinning you tires. Making rules before 99% of you have even run the car is _________.:
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Old 02-02-2008, 07:25 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by BullFrog View Post
Ya'll have put the cart before the horse. Until the cars are out there running your just spinning you tires. Making rules before 99% of you have even run the car is _________.:


Quote:
Once people have their 4 cell specific cars and motors it makes changing to lipo a problem. You end up in the nimh trap just like 5 cell.
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Old 02-02-2008, 08:17 AM   #260
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The way I see it, in a way we have put the cart before the horse to an extent. I was thinking about the VTA and seeing what from that worked that could be adapted to this. Really the best way to really see what would work the best would come from getting a hold of one (or some) of these cars and getting a chance to run it and seeing what works. I understand that LiPo is an emerging technology. The combinations I listed (LiPo included), were the first ones I could come up with off the top of my head that combined readily commercially available motors and batteries, plus utiizing a lot of the combinations people have put forth over the course of this discussion as well as taking a page or two from Vintage Trans Am as inspiration.

What this is about is coming up with a combination that not only is something that most people (new and existing racers alike) can afford, but also about not turning these cars into land missiles that only a handful of people can drive (which from what I can gather, was part of why 10th pan dropped out of the mainstream in the first place). Obviously there are some people that have narrow chassis (and wide chassis) 10th pan cars already, so Im sure those guys have run varying motor/battery combinations and have some idea as to what works at this point, and that information cannot be discounted. If nothing else, having plenty of people testing here over the course of the coming months both on carpet and asphalt (with existing chassis and with the ones that are coming in the next few months), will yield a wealth of very necessary additional information that will only help make this a very good class and only help it to grow.
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Old 02-02-2008, 02:05 PM   #261
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Trackdesigner - I can see you are excited about this but you need to relax and let the racers decide what they want to run. The cream will rise to the top and then ROAR and everyone else can start making real rules.

If you make rules now without knowing what potential pitfalls there may be you make end up damaging the very class you want to promote.

Like Speed XL posted a page back or so ROAR already has the Pro-10 rules just substitute 200mm for 235mm and run the same power systems as 1/12th to start...thats all there is to it. The rest will work itself out after guys start running the cars.
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Old 02-02-2008, 02:21 PM   #262
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You make a good point Adrian. The nice thing is that having the racers go after it, itll be about as good as testing since everybody will get to see what works under real race conditions. (Particularly as the 200mm chassis start hitting the brick and mortar and online shops).

I know someone referenced the CCT I think in this discussion. With that, Corally USA does not have it on their site but Corally Europe does. I think the SP10X is supposed to be the replacement for that one but Im sure a CCT could still be had with some digging online.
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Old 02-02-2008, 06:12 PM   #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM View Post
Trackdesigner - I can see you are excited about this but you need to relax and let the racers decide what they want to run. The cream will rise to the top and then ROAR and everyone else can start making real rules.

If you make rules now without knowing what potential pitfalls there may be you make end up damaging the very class you want to promote.

Like Speed XL posted a page back or so ROAR already has the Pro-10 rules just substitute 200mm for 235mm and run the same power systems as 1/12th to start...thats all there is to it. The rest will work itself out after guys start running the cars.
Absolutely. Great post.


But,
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I know a lot of you like the 235 cars but thats not where we are going.
"We" does not include all the manufacturers. You can only speak for your own company. It seems that CRC has thought of provisions for both, if not others as well (we will have to wait and see once there are pics of their cars).

It would definately be a bad idea for a company to produce a car that was wide only. It would be near impossible to "narrow up" one of the old style cars. But it seems widening a 200 mm car is viable option.

I agree 100% with the idea of the narrow cars, sports car bodies, and 4-cell packs, ecspecially on carpet and on some asphalt tracks as well, either as an entry level class or for some of the smaller tracks.

But, we can not shut out the wide cars completely. There are places out there where the wide cars can run, and even with 6 cells (&/or LiPo's). Also, there are obviously alot of people out there that are either "loyal" to their wide cars, or just can't spend the money on a new car right away. Letting them race will help the class to grow even more, rather than turning them away until they buy a new car. Not to mention, they are still being raced today.

Granted, there are some smaller tracks out there (like my home track, 60 x 36) where the big cars simply won't fit and are out of place. I don't think anybody would have any fun with that even with 4 cells. But outside on the big track, let 'em rip.

8th on-road cars are probably THE fastest class in r/c, and there is a correct place to run them. You couldn't run them at a venue that was too small, but at the right track, they are a blast even for a newer driver.

I believe it is the same for 10th pan. There is a time and place for both 200mm/4cell & 235mm/6cell (or LiPo). And, if both classes can be integrated into one chassis with a couple option parts and a body change...WOOHOO!!!

John
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Old 02-02-2008, 06:40 PM   #264
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I know some have actually been able to integrate 235 and 200mm chassis in one race, and that would not be a problem in the meanwhile, but the thing also is that if this class grows we are going to have to consider separating the two.
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Old 02-02-2008, 07:47 PM   #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnywhopper View Post
Absolutely. Great post.


But,


"We" does not include all the manufacturers. You can only speak for your own company. It seems that CRC has thought of provisions for both, if not others as well (we will have to wait and see once there are pics of their cars).

It would definately be a bad idea for a company to produce a car that was wide only. It would be near impossible to "narrow up" one of the old style cars. But it seems widening a 200 mm car is viable option.

I agree 100% with the idea of the narrow cars, sports car bodies, and 4-cell packs, ecspecially on carpet and on some asphalt tracks as well, either as an entry level class or for some of the smaller tracks.

But, we can not shut out the wide cars completely. There are places out there where the wide cars can run, and even with 6 cells (&/or LiPo's). Also, there are obviously alot of people out there that are either "loyal" to their wide cars, or just can't spend the money on a new car right away. Letting them race will help the class to grow even more, rather than turning them away until they buy a new car. Not to mention, they are still being raced today.

Granted, there are some smaller tracks out there (like my home track, 60 x 36) where the big cars simply won't fit and are out of place. I don't think anybody would have any fun with that even with 4 cells. But outside on the big track, let 'em rip.

8th on-road cars are probably THE fastest class in r/c, and there is a correct place to run them. You couldn't run them at a venue that was too small, but at the right track, they are a blast even for a newer driver.

I believe it is the same for 10th pan. There is a time and place for both 200mm/4cell & 235mm/6cell (or LiPo). And, if both classes can be integrated into one chassis with a couple option parts and a body change...WOOHOO!!!

John
Good post

Jay will have the new 10X on monday and being 225mm rear and 220mm front or on the pdf said 230mm rear and 210 front. Just one more new wide pan car to play with.
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Old 02-02-2008, 09:56 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by trackdesigner71 View Post
What this is about is coming up with a combination that not only is something that most people (new and existing racers alike) can afford, but also about not turning these cars into land missiles that only a handful of people can drive (which from what I can gather, was part of why 10th pan dropped out of the mainstream in the first place). Obviously there are some people that have narrow chassis (and wide chassis) 10th pan cars already, so Im sure those guys have run varying motor/battery combinations and have some idea as to what works at this point, and that information cannot be discounted. If nothing else, having plenty of people testing here over the course of the coming months both on carpet and asphalt (with existing chassis and with the ones that are coming in the next few months), will yield a wealth of very necessary additional information that will only help make this a very good class and only help it to grow.
With all do respect dear Sir...those of us who have run pro10 pan cars recently, not 7,8,10,15 yrs ago using old cells and 27t brushed motors of 10 yrs ago...but rather 10.5BL motors, 4.5 BL motors, and 7.4v Lipos, etc...today's best BL motor and Lipo tech, have explained time and time again, that a 200mm Pan car, with 10.5 BL and 7.4V Lipo, is not as fast down the straight as 4.5T BL Tourinr cars, but they are much faster in corner speed and infield than TC's, which make as fast over all per lap, than as mod TC's, but they are much easier to drive than mod TCs, which means those experienced with 1/12 scale 19T, or mod TC or 10.5/19T TC, can easily get used to and drive a 200mm pan car with 10.5BL and 7.4v Lipo.

But you insist on using 4 cell nimh and 13.5 motors, thinking 200mm pan cars are like 1/12 cars on carpet. Again: 4 cell 13.5 or 17.5 for outdoor 200mm pan car racing is too slow.

10.5BL with 7.4 Lipo or 6 cell nimh-
13.5BL with 7.4 Lipo or 6 cell nimh-
17.5BL with 7.4 Lipo or 6 cell nimh-


Another pblm is that many keep trying to use these cars as a way to bring new people in the hobby...guess what? These are not RTR's or bashers...these pro10 cars are very good racing machines, and not meant for those not ready nor dedicated tot he hobby to buy them and come to a club race to "have fun" as they crash into walls, reck other's cars, and then pack up and show up a few months later to do it again for an hour or two...

Those that are involved and decidcated to racing or running TC's/1/12 pan cars, etc., they are the ones decicated tot he hobby and they's be the ones interested and will put the time and effort to buy, set-up, run and compete consistently with these cars...they are the foundation and main source of life the hobby has. Get them to learn and about the cars and come out and race them...
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Old 02-02-2008, 10:56 PM   #267
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With touring car costing as much as it is, I think a lot of people are hoping that people can see this as an alternative to that because of the money pit it is turning into. What I think is that its the existing racers that will really be at the forefront of this if nothing else. As far as new racers, I am not expecting this to be a "the first car these guys ever run is a 10th pan car" kind of class.

This is something that has definite potential to be very big. I think the iron is very hot right now with many 200mm cars coming out. I think its groups like the guys in FL and the guys in CA and Grenade's bunch in CO that really are going to be the key for the potential success of a 10th pan class at something beyond those areas.

I would like to take the time to mention that I had come up with something for pan cars a few years ago but it largely died. If this really can catch on, I would see no problem with it coming back and someone else being at the forefront with it.
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Old 02-02-2008, 11:33 PM   #268
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Am I the only one who can't preorder the CRC Gen X10? I click the link and it keeps redirecting me back. I'll try again tomorrow... Too excited I guess..

Well whenever the car comes out, I'll do some testing with it. I'll do 4cell, 6cell, and lipo. With many different BL motors. Maybe 17.5, 13.5, 10.5, and maybe 3.5. Since I work 2nd shift, I'll have all morning during the week to do some testing at the local outdoor track. I'll compare lap times to my 6cell 10.5 Touring car. March should be a fun month...
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Old 02-03-2008, 12:20 AM   #269
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Taz after you left the track today I got a call saying the new Corally was here! Thanks T-BANG!
I have the whole car disassembled and have started to sand the carbon before sealing. The car looks like it will need very little modification to be competitve.
Just gotta paint a sweet BBR body.
Oh and for the record I'll be running 13.5 with li-po saddle packs.

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Old 02-03-2008, 02:40 AM   #270
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I have found it to be easier to help a newcomer get his 10th pancar running OK than it is helping a newcomer with a TC with that.
I've helped quiete a few newcomers on our track the last few years.

The TC guys always first need a session on a setup station before they had a driveable car. If they hit the wal extra hard or broke something, they be out in the woods again.

On the other hand, I found that an super-old fiberglass Asso RC10L or LS is the perfect newcomer car.
The car doesn't seem to mind any setup mistake you make-tweak, toe, tire size, it doesn't seem to mind. It's super forgiving and easy to drive.

So my points are these:
#1: 10th Pancars cab definetly be a good first racing class. Just give the newcomer a basic training of what to look at. (swap left and right tires every other run, mind ride height, what to do if your tire chunks, basic front end camber setup and other basic stuff)
#2: I would really like to encourage our manufacturers in this forum to think about making a basic version of their cars:

- Fiberglass chassis parts(relatively inexpensive and very flexible so very forgiving to drive - a newcomers dream)
- Fixed tweak (that's how I run my 3.5 turns 6 cell mod car, just make sure you swap left and right tires every other run). This is one less pain for a newcomer
- Steel screws
- Add a simple and clear "how to set up your car" section to the manual so that even the least technical drivers can get their cars running well. A lot of pictures are a must.
- 200mm wide and cool looking high downforce body (high downforce makes a car easy to drive)
- Usefull tires in the box that don't wear out fast (not the trditional green compound)
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