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Old 01-20-2008, 02:55 PM   #61
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There is a big difference in maintaining your packs and abusing them. If lipo packs need to be maintained for performance, then so be it. I am sure someone will develop a safe and effective way of doing so. But overcharging, in either nimh or lipo, seriously don't come around me. I might take it as a blatant disregard for my safety and those around me.
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Old 01-20-2008, 02:56 PM   #62
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The fact is that in racing people want to have an edge and try be faster. It has always been like this and will continue to be like this. It's just good for you guys to know that there are ways to make lipos faster or stay faster as many of you have been believeing the hype that you just put one Lipo pack in your car and never discharge it or take care of it. That may work in types of racing where speed/power isn't critical but in applications where it is you will need to train and maintain your Lipos. That is just a fact that people have to understand.
Ive raced for over a year with lipos without needing to do any of this. The dozen or so people I race against each week that use lipo do not do this. Our year old lipos are just as competitive as the brand new lipos. So where exactly is the hype? It seems to be originating from you and not from common knowledge of those that have used lipo for a long time.
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Old 01-20-2008, 02:56 PM   #63
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will theses fit the phi or not fellas
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Old 01-20-2008, 02:58 PM   #64
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will theses fit the phi or not fellas
Danny already posted that the 4000 would.
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Old 01-20-2008, 02:59 PM   #65
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4wd Racer: I'm sure ROAR will tech for overcharged packs but they can't tech for racers who will be cycling there packs multiple times to extract the most out of them. The point that Tornado is pointing is great. He as a racer always wants to push the limits to be as fast as possible. As more and more racers use Lipos in applications where speed is important we will see more ways to improve perforamnce of Lipos.

The real problem is club racing where the track owner can't pay someone to tech cars before they get put on the track. How do you keep overcharging from happening at that level ?


I think it's a great thing that racers know what they are getting into with the changes going on. I understand that life expectancy of sub-c hasn't been great in the past couple of years but maybe Lipos aren't as great as they were hyped up to be in some aplications.
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Old 01-20-2008, 03:00 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by or8ital View Post
Ive raced for over a year with lipos without needing to do any of this. The dozen or so people I race against each week that use lipo do not do this. Our year old lipos are just as competitive as the brand new lipos. So where exactly is the hype? It seems to be originating from you and not from common knowledge of those that have used lipo for a long time.
Cycle your Lipo pack 5 times back to back to back. I would bet a brand new Benjamin that the numbers get better everytime. I've tested it on every major brand out there.

I know what performs and what does not. Leaving the pack in your car and just repeaking will destroy the performance life of the pack.

Yes overcharging is extreme and dangerous, but training and conditioning your Lipos will give more performance than the common knowledge of just peak and go, peak and go..................
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Old 01-20-2008, 03:01 PM   #67
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Ok, I just need to keep things simple and I apologize in advance if this is already common knowledge. If a person is racing 10.5 brushless will there any performance advantage of running Lipo over NiMh? How about 13.5?

Thank you in advance.
So far it seems like NiMh are still faster in the limited motor classes but we will be testing with our new packs as the performance is going to be better than our current pack so we will see. Should have more info in a few weeks.
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Old 01-20-2008, 03:02 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Danny/SMC
The real problem is club racing where the track owner can't pay someone to tech cars before they get put on the track. How do you keep overcharging from happening at that level ?
Well, this is real simple. As the tornado guy said you should not do this with other branded lipo batteries, then I will be influencing people that run at my track not to buy the smc lipo batteries.
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Old 01-20-2008, 03:06 PM   #69
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Please understand that what I'm saying and Tornado is saying is based on high end racing where speed is important and the extra 10th of a volt can be used. If you club race and your not concerned about speed then yes you can use your Lipo and not worry about discharging at high amp rates and just keep recharging it after your run.

We also know that overcharging is not safe but when I was at the offroad nats in 1994 I saw one of Losi top driver charge his pack right off the rental car battery until it got very hot. This guy raced stock. They did forget to monitor one packs and it vented all over the rental car. So pushing the limits have been around in racing forever.
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Old 01-20-2008, 03:08 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Tornado_Racing View Post
Cycle your Lipo pack 5 times back to back to back. I would bet a brand new Benjamin that the numbers get better everytime. I've tested it on every major brand out there.

I know what performs and what does not. Leaving the pack in your car and just repeaking will destroy the performance life of the pack.

Yes overcharging is extreme and dangerous, but training and conditioning your Lipos will give more performance than the common knowledge of just peak and go, peak and go..................
How bout this. Ill put a benjamin on the fact that I can match your fastest lap time with my year our lipo without doing this. I dont need something to make me feel like Im faster. Your new #'s wont translate into you being faster then me, period. I race on the track, not on #'s off my charger. Lets stop the hype in RC.
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Old 01-20-2008, 03:14 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by or8ital View Post
How bout this. Ill put a benjamin on the fact that I can match your fastest lap time with my year our lipo without doing this. I dont need something to make me feel like Im faster. Your new #'s wont translate into you being faster then me, period. I race on the track, not on #'s off my charger. Lets stop the hype in RC.
Nothing about feel, it will make you faster....................... by a good tenth or 2.
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Old 01-20-2008, 03:18 PM   #72
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Danny brings up an excellent point, then how do you tech for an over charged Lipo pack or prevent some one from doing so at a race event? That would be difficult to do, but perhaps

1.) ROAR could consider putting in a maximum amp charge rate, i.e. 7.00 A (which would be 1.4 C for a 5000 Lipo pack, or less) regardless of the pack's capacity. Even if the Lipo was at 8000 Mah, etc. This maximum charge rate could be reviewed each year and revised as needed for the overall safely of the race community.

2.) Roar should also set a maximum temp charge rate, i.e. Lipo's pack should not be charged past a certain temp etc. Same as their current recommendations that Lipo should not be forced to be charged past 8.04 vt.

That way nearby racers can look at the chargers of the racers pitting next to them and know that the charge rate amp number should be at or lower of the ROAR stated max charge limit, to see if rules are being followed, or risk disqualification. That being said, true, there's nothing preventing racers from doing any extreme procedures at home to obtain optimal performance unfortunately. That's just how it is I guess.

That being said, I hate to say this but that should have been true of our NiMh's pack in the past few years. In my opinion racers should have NEVER been allowed to charge a NiMh pack at 8,9,10, or even 12 amps at a race event. Maybe at their home/house its okay, but not at a event. ROAR should have set a max amp charge for NiMh's as well, regardless of capacity. Also a max temp charge cut-off (difficult to enforce but could serve as a general safely guidelines for racers to follow) to prevent over venting and exploding NiMh's cells as well. Well that's probably too late for that, maybe not.

Just my opinion and just a few ideas to consider...
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Old 01-20-2008, 03:23 PM   #73
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It's easy to tech for overcharging just measure the packs voltage prior to the pack being used on the track.

My concern is that club races should not have to pay a battery tech guy. At the Nats it's not a problem but for club racing it can be.
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Old 01-20-2008, 03:25 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4wd Racer View Post
Danny brings up an excellent point, then how do you tech for an over charged Lipo pack or prevent some one from doing so at a race event? That would be difficult to do, but perhaps

1.) ROAR could consider putting in a maximum amp charge rate, i.e. 7.00 A (which would be 1.4 C for a 5000 Lipo pack, or less) regardless of the pack's capacity. Even if the Lipo was at 8000 Mah, etc. This maximum charge rate could be reviewed each year and revised as needed for the overall safely of the race community.

2.) Roar should also set a maximum temp charge rate, i.e. Lipo's pack should not be charged past a certain temp etc. Same as their current recommendations that Lipo should not be forced to be charged past 8.04 vt.

That way nearby racers can look at the chargers of the racers pitting next to them and know that the charge rate amp number should be at or lower of the ROAR stated max charge limit, to see if rules are being followed, or risk disqualification. That being said, true, there's nothing preventing racers from doing any extreme procedures at home to obtain optimal performance unfortunately. That's just how it is I guess.

That being said, I hate to say this but that should have been true of our NiMh's pack in the past few years. In my opinion racers should have NEVER been allowed to charge a NiMh pack at 8,9,10, or even 12 amps at a race event. Maybe at their home/house its okay, but not at a event. ROAR should have set a max amp charge for NiMh's as well, regardless of capacity. Also a max temp charge cut-off (difficult to enforce but could serve as a general safely guidelines for racers to follow) to prevent over venting and exploding NiMh's cells as well. Well that's probably too late for that, maybe not.

Just my opinion and just a few ideas to consider...
The danger is in the overcharge and not the high charge rate. At 12 amps the pack gets to about 90 degrees and about 145 during a 35 amp discharge.

A NIHM gets really hot during a hard 8-12 amp charge where as a Lipo does not. Heck it doesn't even get hot during and overcharge.

When you dump a Lipo at 35 amps and then go straight into a charge the pack gets cooler and will drop back down to 90-95 degrees.

When dealing with Lipos I have to put aside the NIHM training we all have been accustomed to.
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Old 01-20-2008, 03:27 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by trilerian View Post
Well, this is real simple. As the tornado guy said you should not do this with other branded lipo batteries, then I will be influencing people that run at my track not to buy the smc lipo batteries.
You can do it with any Lipo pack and get improvements. I think what Tornado means is that with our 22C 5000 pack it's working well.

Tests have been done on other packs and the voltage goes up and IR goes down.
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