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Old 01-28-2008, 11:14 PM   #391
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EddieO: I see where you were coming from....and after reading your last post a couple of times, you are dead-nuts-on (as you already know)
It is history repeating itself, and the next 12 months will tell a lot

Sorry smc for the hijack....Ill let you all get back to the arguing. j/k
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Old 01-29-2008, 01:54 AM   #392
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SMC Lipo packs are designed for those who are looking for the best performing Lipo packs. We won't guarantee 1000+ cycles but we will guarantee that our packs have high average voltage and very low IR. For those who think that the extra performance is at the expense of life expectancy just keep buying/uisng packs that you feel will give you what your looking for. There simply is no way to make everyone happy and our goal is to make the racer who is looking for the best possible power out of his Lipos to be satisfied with our packs.


If you read some of Tonys post he has been using our current 22C/5000 pack for over 3 months with multiple cycles on the GFX and track and he has overcharged his packs numerous times and the packs now have better average voltage and lower IR than they did when they were new so I would have to say that our Lipos do seem like they have decent cycle life.
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Old 01-29-2008, 02:16 AM   #393
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When you're talking about the "best", I want higher voltage, lower ir, and longer runtime. I'm willing to sacrifice cycles to have a better performing battery on the track. That being said, if I pay $100 for a lipo and it lasts 100 cycles, I'm still paying a lot less than I'm paying for Nimh packs at $70 a pack and lasting maybe 30 cycles before you get rid of them and get new ones.
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Old 01-29-2008, 03:18 AM   #394
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieO View Post
I think the one thing you guys are failing to realize is the hardcase is NOT designed, nor never will be, to contain a malfunction of the cells.......the ability of it to expand or not, is not going to prevent a boom or lessen the effects of one....

The hardcase is purely designed to protect the cells from damage during the course of use..........thats it. Look no further than the ROAR rules that only have a drop test on the case, not an expansion test or a boom containment test......

You misunderstand my presence. I infact don't believe in any hardshells. Its a marketing BS that ROAR "bought" into that makes it harder for the lipo sellers who have been into this for years to gain a foothold in the RC Car market. So we end up having to rely on the same battery companies as before (no offense to SMC intended).

What I am saying though is in a sealed case like this, the possible flame out could be more volatile since the internal pressure will be higher before the seal cracks open or melts through the plastic case. Not as bad as a NImh exploding, but the same idea of pressure buildup.

As far as history repeating itself with numbers. Maybe. But remember, we are trying all to keep the hobby from dying in this day and age of cheap video game thrills (even if that industry is my career goal).

Quote:
If your cells expand, you have more than likely done something wrong.....if a cell expands to the point where the case becomes an issue, its more than likely going boom anyways....
No, regular lipos flame up. They don't go BOOM. That must be the round battery in you speaking. As earlier suggested, go look at some youtube videos of lipos going up.

Quote:
I find it funny that Lipo people get their way......stuff gets legalized.......companies finally release stuff, yet they still complain. For once, be satisfied.........or at least till fuel cells are gonna be used....
I'm still waiting on solar power.
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Old 01-29-2008, 06:40 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by Sigearhead View Post
When you're talking about the "best", I want higher voltage, lower ir, and longer runtime. I'm willing to sacrifice cycles to have a better performing battery on the track. That being said, if I pay $100 for a lipo and it lasts 100 cycles, I'm still paying a lot less than I'm paying for Nimh packs at $70 a pack and lasting maybe 30 cycles before you get rid of them and get new ones.
Yeah I was thinking the same thing. At least twice the cycles for about 30% more. Still a much better value then nimh. Plus I only need a couple packs at a time vs at least 4 for a race day. And in theory with lipo the performance would be more consistent over the life of the pack.

RC is the strangest business. Where else do you have such direct access with those that make the products. RcTech is funny. Sometimes you just mention an idea on here and next thing you know someone is making it or incorporating it into their product. This happens so frequently people get frustrated when it doesnt happen sometimes.
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Old 01-29-2008, 08:30 AM   #396
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Convict, I am hardly bitter........I just find many of the Lipo fanatics hypocritical......they whined whined whined about getting LIpO legal......blasted NImH any chance they could and layed into any company not embracing lipo tech............now its legal, companies are releasing stuff and they are still complaining about the products and slamming the companies and/or their products.......we'll get the same new cycle once the new power source of the future comes along......

And while we can maintain that cycle life is the #1 concern.........it's not. I think its safe to say that 99% of the people who were early users of lipo tech were already the type of racer who bought the budget packs or made their packs last the whole season........regardless of losing .1 per lap........

Now, you have the remaining population entering the Lipo scene........with a fair amount of that population being the HARDCORE racer........aka, the guys who pay the extra $30 for .001 of a volt per cell........and .1 lower IR.....the guys that charge at 10 amps, cause it FEELS like it gives more power.....the same guys who true their tires down to be one run foams......so........

What will end up happening, like I have said all along, the cycle will just repeat itself............we will have a battery war, till we get a decent grasp on what are the best cells..........then the geeks will find ways to get .001 more of volt and .1 lower IR..........people will then pay $30 more for those cells......and why? because its all in the name of speed.....

Claim what you want..........most of the same Lipo fanatics, were brushless fanatics......they said the motors could not be tuned.......they were all the same........and as we have we have seen, thats hardly been the case, just like I said way back when.......and there is still plenty left to explore.....

My company didn't do anything lipo because I was not going to put out an unsafe product that wasn't legal for any sanctioned racing.........we are a racing company.........I could of made a quick buck like some other companies did, but I decided to wait until stuff was legal......now that it is, I will move to a Lipo I like........

Whats funny now, is we are arguing about a plastic case.........just wait 12 months:P

Later EddieO

Ooooo ! I`m so dissappointed by my Carbon 3200`s I purchase last Feburary !!!

They still run great and just like new ....


None of your Brood Nk -Ml packs would of stood up more than few months...

Eddie , spec is dieing ...

Mod is now the true spec class..


You don`t have pay $30 extra for just a 1/10volt extra so you can have the advantage on your buddy`s in stock .
Now days you just buy a faster brushless motor if you think you need more speed...


And My Lrp x-11 ? I hate it !

lasts month after month always runs great with no maintenance even....



Now .....


Your company is concern about safety ?

Ka-Boom ! Is that the safety you are endorsing with Nk-Ml ?


O you tell um Eddie , keep on telling um ......

So far you been wrong , maybe next year ?
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Old 01-29-2008, 10:47 AM   #397
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Seems to me , no matter what we do, ROAR will always figure out some way to slow the cars down. But we will fight them and hopefully make the jump to a faster class.. I personally would like more people around here to run an open class. Not since the mid 90's has there been a big showing. Batteries gotten more capacity and motor tech is way faster. Stock is almost like a 15x2 from back in the day. Batteries are over 3 times what they used to be and theres no telling whats going to evolve next.
At first I wasnt very happy about all the new stuff and just kept using the 4200's and check point motor. But there no time like the present and I need to get used to the new stuff soon or get left in the dust. As for flat cells in plastic cases, they're the best thing in R/C to date. There are 4 less cells to short out and maintenance is nothing. (just like the motors are now) And performence is the same (almost perfectly) run after run. Besides adding 6 oz. of lead to my car ,OMG!.. I hope that ROAR does not make 5 or 4 cells for 19 (Super Stock) or Open. But only for the beginer class and limit the motors to a 17.5 to keep the noobs from buying a nuclear missile and detonating on impact like most rookies do.
Fundamentally,,, Cost efectively,,, and no matter what the nay sayers lash out , Flat cells are here to stay... Go buy 2 packs and a Li po charger .. then race all day till your fingers fall off. Lets just race ok.. WTF is wrong with you guys anyways? Round cells are the ones that actually go BOOM!
And it hurts when the shrapnell hits you.
So I guess I'm just saying, "Can't we all just get allong?"
And when a faster car move up behind you, don't try to race him, let him go.
And if the cars are too fast , oh crap.. wrong thread..
But I think you all know where I'm comming from.
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Old 01-29-2008, 09:48 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by Jack Rimer View Post
Why is it assumed that performance comes at the expense of longevity? At what point do we acknowledge that a racer has "gotten his money's worth" out of a pack? If our packs last 500 cycles instead of 1000, is that too much of a sacrifice in reliability? How about 100? How about 900? Since it is difficult to quantify this relationship, why must it be assumed that anyone wanting performance must sacrifice cycle life? Or reliability? Or safety?

I'm just askin'.
Jack,

As a reference of cycle life; I bought a new SMC 5000 pack as soon as they came out, I think that was late September. I have been racing a lot at Josh's track, that is lot's of practice and three heats and a Main on Sunday and two heats and a main on Tuesday. I figure that makes about 10 charges on Sunday and 8 on Tuesday, let's say 18a week, plus a few practice days. I am guessing by late December I charged about 250 times.

I only had one pack so I figured I must have lost some power by then so I bought a new pack in December to have a nice new pack, great idea for going faster. Testing showed that the new pack was not a bit faster.

My point of all this is that the original pack had not slowed down a bit. I can't imagine how anyone could honestly complain about that many charges with no loss in performance, and it is going strong, probably another 30 to 40 cycles. Plus it appears over the length of a run the Lipo is just as fast as new NiMH packs.

So to answer your question what is the number that is enough? I don't know yet but when that original pack slows down I will let you know. It will probably be next winter, after I use up a couple of very expensive gas engines!
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Old 01-29-2008, 11:33 PM   #399
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Thanks for the feedback, Ted. That is good to know.
In many of the comments on this thread and the other SMC lipo thread (disaster) some people have assumed that because these packs have better than average performance they are somehow less reliable or don't last as long. While your experience does not prove nor disprove that theory, it does show that the cycle life is certainly "adequate" for your expectations as a racer. I can only assume others feel the same, since our sales have been very good on these packs. I believe the hard case packs will encourage an even broader group of people to try our lipos.
I am not claiming that our packs will last as long or longer than Brand X, but by the same token, it can't be said that they don't either. Cycle life under race conditions is difficult to quantify. Ultimately, time will tell if there is a significant difference in longevity. Who knows, maybe ours will last longer.
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Old 01-30-2008, 12:43 AM   #400
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I consider myself a hardcore racer and I would say that while most of the guys that fall under that category we have been very hesitant to run lipos. One factor was that they were not ROAR legal so you could not run them at any of the big racers, so for most, we saw it as a waste of time. At the same time most also think the Nimh's are faster. I recently got a SMC 5000 pack and I have been very impressed. I have only been running it for a couple of weeks but I can match the fast laps and overall times ran with nimh's and while it feels somewhat softer upfront it is definitely consistent throughout the run and througout the day after multiple cycles (5-6), something you can't do with a nimh pack. I haven't quite completely converted over but I believe Lipos are the future and the performance and durability is quite impressive.
I hope that Jack and Danny continue to give us the great customer service and support by getting on this thread and discussing their products despite some bad apples that always seem to be starting up stuff.
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Old 01-30-2008, 12:58 AM   #401
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Good to hear a report like that... if that's typical (still the same after 200+ cycles) then it's a good thing. The reason I think some are skeptical regarding performance/reliability is because that's the way things have been in most cases over the past few years. In general, the cells that put up the biggest #'s also showed weakness in either longevity/durability or other areas... losing capacity etc. That doesn't mean a mfg can't get it right and have the best of both.

Only problem now is convincing racers they still need to buy fresh packs regularly to keep their "edge", like some have been saying. If we raced dischargers maybe...

The water is still a little muddy but it's fun to ride the rapids.

Even with their "issues" (real and fabricated) lipos are indeed the next evolution in rc batteries.
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Old 01-31-2008, 10:57 PM   #402
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Hey Danny,
Will the 4000 fit in the JRXS type R? Or the 5000? I ask specifically because the new Orion 3600 does NOT fit. One needs to take a Dremel to the case in order for it to fit. Love to try your new packs but I've learned that lesson the hard way enough for now.

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Old 02-01-2008, 07:03 AM   #403
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There are a few guys here that have the platinum pack in that same car with no mods... cant see why it wouldnt fit.
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Old 02-01-2008, 08:36 AM   #404
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Interesting read....

The cycling of packs is echoed by the anecdotes I hear at our club racing i.e., the pack seems faster as the day goes on.

I run LIPO, but I can't put a whole run together without clipping a board or getting marshalled so that performance advantage is somewhat irrelevant. I beleive that this is true for 80% of all racers as a whole.

However, very few of us peons realise that its our driving thats holding us back, not the equipment. So we buy the mags, read RC Tech, buy all the latest and greatest and concentrate so much on getting the most out of our gear that we neglect learning to drive and practice.

For the club racers that make up the majority of the customers (I'm guessing), we have to realise thats some of these discussions are between racers that are at a level that the majority will never acheive.

Anyways, that just my comments, please ignore, now to my question (please, do not ignore)...

For the masses (Club racers) that have ICE' chargers, will cycling at a 10A discharge rate be of any use, or would be better to forget it and just charge, run, charge, run?
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Old 02-01-2008, 08:59 AM   #405
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Originally Posted by Thugs Bunny View Post
Hey Danny,
Will the 4000 fit in the JRXS type R? Or the 5000? I ask specifically because the new Orion 3600 does NOT fit. One needs to take a Dremel to the case in order for it to fit. Love to try your new packs but I've learned that lesson the hard way enough for now.

Thanks,
Frank Connolly

Beat me to it but I am more interested in if the 5000 pack will fit with no mods to the Type R. If so I will be buying 2-4 of these.
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