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Old 01-21-2008, 10:31 PM   #271
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I have been using Lipo for more than a year with and without casing
I have had no problems with it, I have never dumped and have used them more than 3-4x per raceday. I have 3 Lipos in 3 offroad cars. I use an Orion charger and have had no problems. Lipo was the future before but is the way now because of the number of times you can use it everyday. I have 10 4200s and have not used them for a while because of the lipos. Lipos have made it cheaper and easier for me to enjoy my hobby. I am not the fastest guy but not the slowest guy in the track, but Lipos have been getting me thru my races and it has been cheaper and more exciting bec of the lower winds of BL motors we can use because of the higher mahs.
Josh Cyrul (love your video of you 1/8 jumping your house) and the other pros might be affected by 1volt increase but the non pro racers may not. So for me the benefit of cycling lipos and warned to be carefull is not for me. For me I would say Lipo and BL made me come back and race again bec it is fun again and not so expensive like before. Dont know if the manufacturers are getting a hit because of the lipos but the racers like it and ROAR has now approved it. We still have alot to learn about lipos but right now if you use it right the way it is supposed to be used it should be safe

Just my 2 cents
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Old 01-21-2008, 10:46 PM   #272
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Saying lipos are bad for racing, bad for the hobby....

It's kinda like saying McDonalds is bad for America because some might abuse the privilege of having cheap fattening yummy food and end up being fat and killing themselves and costing us more in health ins. and....

Oh... umm, well maybe you guys are right.

ok, how about this one:

It's like replacing an old beater with a sweet brand new car that almost everyone loves that owns them... then complaining because the new car isn't perfect and you found a few things you can do that are ultimately destructive to the car and maybe illegal and dangerous too... but will give you that little advantage you need to stick it to the guy next to you at the stoplight. Then the dealer/car maker says "oh yeah... that stuff works great... and we think a lot of guys are doing it. But we don't encourage you to do it of course."


Ok, just having fun with the thread.... time for bed now...
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Old 01-21-2008, 10:53 PM   #273
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I'd hardly call overcharging a battery until it catches on fire a "speed secret" or research. I understand we're all trying to be nice in here, but lets not act like these guys stumbled on to something magical. Some of you are just now paying attention, but many of us have been talking about the potential benefits and dangers of overcharging for a long time. It's great you've all caught up and decided to join us, but forgive me if I don't pin a medal on you for being some visionary.

It's natural to try and extract maximum performance from your gear. However, you have the draw the line when it endangers people. That's all. This isn't about trying to preserve the LiPo utopia. Most of us knew there would be problems when we discovered that the more volatile cell chemistries produced higher voltages, albeit for maybe only a few cycles. Oh, you guys didn't know that one either? Maybe you can go "discover" it and tell us how smart you are about batteries.

There's a strong underlying tone from people that seem to want to get back at the early LiPo adopters for their delirious support of the batteries all along. Hey, I'm with you, it annoys me too. There will be plenty of time for that in the future, no doubt. Lets just be careful not to do it with something that could get people hurt, or damage our hobby's reputation, okay?

With apologies to Josh, with whom I sometimes disagree, but respect, especially for trying to be a mediator in this nasty thread. I hid my soapbox behind my back instead of burning it, sorry! :-(
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Old 01-21-2008, 11:37 PM   #274
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Maybe Tony or Danny can tell us how many packs caught on fire when they did this testing?? My guess is none....

Remember, the rules from ROAR just went up only a few days ago... Before that there were no regulations, just suggestions/warnings from the cell manufactures. I'm sure ni-mh mfg's don't agree with strapping a 4600 cell in a car and slamming it into a wall at 50mph either or dead shorting or charging off a car battery... But yes, I've seen it all done and I've done it myself... Does it make it right?? No.. Can it hurt someone?? Yes... Are there rules against it?? Nope.... There now is with lipo for the saftey of all involved.

Edited - Comment made in frustration.

Funny how "research" and racing has helped push the battery technology so far... I started with 1200mah Sanyo SC's and I can't even remember what the purple/blue Varta cells were on mah's. I garantee that back then the battery companies said "What?? 35amp constant with possible 100+ amp spikes... Are you nuts!!"... I remember racing for Trinity having to run temp labels (labels that changed colors) on cells to run once in a car and send back to Panasonic because they couldn't believe what we were putting the cells through.... Better yet, I remember sitting next to Dieter when he was working on the zapper when the SDRC switch wasn't good enough quality and blew up only a foot from my head... Yep, ears rang for 3 days on that one.... Who would have though smacking the cells with a huge spike of current would increase voltage and drop the IR?? No rules against that one but it's potentially super dangerous also....

Lipo will be no different.... I've spoken with Jack about how SMC has already changed construction techniques within the packs to generate a better C rating and performance...

As far as being dangerous - Ignorance is bliss - I raced at several nitro events and at one in particular I was sent to the ground from another guy's exaust that blew in my face in the pit lane. Spashett and I started running from pit lane when a few of these guys hit the track. We were told it was from the oil they were using..... A few years there was DQ's from an IFMAR WC for illegal fuel.... At the time no one knew what was being run was so dangerous to all our health. Now there is fuel testing and hand out fuel at IFMAR events to ensure equal competition and safety for all....

It happens everywhere - Reguardless of right or wrong... It shouldn't be promoted but the knowledge needs to be there to keep things in check and people understanding why it shouldn't be done rather than pushing the envelope.....
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Old 01-21-2008, 11:41 PM   #275
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A E - 12R5.2 _ S M - REV8 PRO

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Old 01-21-2008, 11:46 PM   #276
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Old 01-21-2008, 11:48 PM   #277
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Old 01-21-2008, 11:51 PM   #278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Cyrul View Post
This entire thread is like the moron who sued McD's for the hot coffee because the cup didn't say - Caution, may be hot!....
Sometimes the web makes you wonder who's really being the moron...LOL


From http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htm

Quote:
There is a lot of hype about the McDonalds' scalding coffee case. No
one is in favor of frivolous cases of outlandish results; however, it is
important to understand some points that were not reported in most of
the stories about the case. McDonalds coffee was not only hot, it was
scalding -- capable of almost instantaneous destruction of skin, flesh
and muscle. Here's the whole story.

Stella Liebeck of Albuquerque, New Mexico, was in the passenger seat of
her grandson's car when she was severely burned by McDonalds' coffee in
February 1992. Liebeck, 79 at the time, ordered coffee that was served
in a styrofoam cup at the drivethrough window of a local McDonalds.

After receiving the order, the grandson pulled his car forward and
stopped momentarily so that Liebeck could add cream and sugar to her
coffee. (Critics of civil justice, who have pounced on this case, often
charge that Liebeck was driving the car or that the vehicle was in
motion when she spilled the coffee; neither is true.) Liebeck placed
the cup between her knees and attempted to remove the plastic lid from
the cup. As she removed the lid, the entire contents of the cup spilled
into her lap.
The sweatpants Liebeck was wearing absorbed the coffee and held it next to her skin. A vascular surgeon determined that Liebeck suffered full thickness burns (or third-degree burns) over 6 percent of her body, including her inner thighs, perineum, buttocks, and genital and groin areas. She was hospitalized for eight days, during which time she underwent skin grafting. Liebeck, who also underwent debridement treatments, sought to settle her claim for $20,000, but McDonalds refused.
The rest of the information is at that link...and pretty much all over the web.
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Old 01-21-2008, 11:55 PM   #279
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I guess I don't know how to write and get my point across as some of you still think I have something against Lipos and the tests I have done and info I have on how to increase or keep the performance of Lipo is just BS.

Anyway that being said I have been racing RC cars for a long time and I just want racing to be as equal as possible. Maybe I should of never talked about cycling your Lipo packs to keep them at there best but my goal is to let everyone know that this new technology isn't as hassle free as most have been lead to believe.

Let me speculate on a scenario that could possibly happen. Lipos takeover electric racing as most racers think you buy one pack and you repeak after your run and never discharge it and this pack will stay as good as new for 2 years. The cool thing is you can use a 50-100 dollar charger that is very small and inexpensive to charge this pack. Now all of sudden the hardcore racers like Tony or somone like myself who actually likes to test packs/cells find out that if you discharge your pack after each run and get it hot it actaully improves lap times ( this is actually true ). What if someone finds that discharging at 100 amps makes the packs run even better but you have to do this only once per day so you need more than one pack ( this is specualtion ) so now racers who want to be as fast as others need to buy 100 amp discharger that will be big and bulky plus will cost around 1000 dollars.


So actually I just want to let everyone know that Lipos will need to be treated in certain ways to keep them at there best or make them better. So some of you can think I'm an idiot but my goal is to try and keep racing as fair as possible and let everyone know about this.


Now for those who refuse to believe that discharging Lipos and repeaking them immediately after using a 35 amp discharge please try it for yourself and then if you don't feel it makes a difference in your type of racing then don't worry about it but most types of racing where there is good traction will show benefits.

Last edited by Danny/SMC; 01-22-2008 at 12:19 AM.
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Old 01-21-2008, 11:57 PM   #280
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It's hard to keep one on the good ole' r/c tech... All the crap that flies around is frustrating and the main reason why I have disapeared from here the past few years. To be productive, informative, educational is one thing but to just regurg the same crap taking shots has just become old nonsence that's the mainstay here. With that, I get frustrated and post the same stupid shots that ruin the very purpose of these forums. A lot of you forget that there are some of us who depend on this hobby (that you all think we want to destroy) to pay our bills and take care of our families.... With that said... I'm out... Back to work to make more "crap" with my "research" to "destroy the hobby" that I "don't give a crap about" even though it pays my bills and takes care of my family....
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Old 01-22-2008, 12:00 AM   #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Cyrul View Post
To be productive, informative, educational is one thing but to just regurg the same crap taking shots has just become old nonsence that's the mainstay here.
(see above post)

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
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Old 01-22-2008, 12:03 AM   #282
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Last edited by Josh Cyrul; 01-22-2008 at 12:54 AM. Reason: Not worth it...
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Old 01-22-2008, 12:15 AM   #283
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This really got a little personal and unpleasant. :-(

Going faster with your existing gear is like a drug, and there's a very strong temptation for people to do it regardless of the consequences. Be careful with that, especially if people look up to you. This is uncharted territory.

Danny, you're a likable guy based on what I've seen here. I'm sorry you took a beating in this thread, and I'm sorry if I had any part in that. I felt very strongly about putting safety first, and got a little bit too riled up over it. I think your heart is in the right place, and respect your passion for the hobby. People look up to you and respect you, and that's carries a lot of responsibility with it.

JayBee, where's the love?! I was going to make you president of the fan club! :-)
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Old 01-22-2008, 12:23 AM   #284
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No problem as I have been helping out on message boards since 1997 and I understand it's hard to get a point accross by writing. Anyone who would talk to me would hopefully understand my concerns and the reason why I think everyone needs to know about what I have found out. I really enjoy RC racing and I would hate to see it go away.
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Old 01-22-2008, 12:48 AM   #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny/SMC
I really enjoy RC racing and I would hate to see it go away.
I don't think you will have to worry about that, as even if all things come to fruition that the even the most die hard lipo hater wants to, we will still have sub-c to run. Interestingly enough, the classes that you would want the high discharge for are what, stock and 19t. You have said on previous threads that the memory effect is less in modified cars. Well, in stock and 19t, good nimh packs have the advantage anyways, so if someone is looking for the advantage they should be running nimh. There, problem solved; if you are looking for that edge then you should be running nimh cells. The people who use lipo really are in it for the convenience factor. There is no need to do voodoo to the packs because if that is what we are looking for then nimh works great. However, if you do happen upon something that increases performance without degrading the pack, and is easier than messing with nimh cells, I would be more than happy for you to post it.
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