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Old 01-21-2008, 08:53 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by Tornado_Racing View Post
Whining doesn't win races, driving, setup, prep, knowledge, and luck win races. Because I was prepared it helped me TQ and win the Birds last year. I don't have to whine as you would be one of the guys chasing me around the track.

Don't get on here and preach to me, I've forgotten more about motor, battery, and set up than you'll even know or learn.
Dude, I don't know if we've ever talked, but I like you. I love when a guy gets called out by some anonymous internet poster and can then actually back it up!

I'm just wondering where all the guys that begged ROAR to make lipo legal ran off to? Gonna be so much easier, cheaper, and equalize the racing. Mind you, it's likely the same group of guys that are pretty confident that all the best stock motor drivers are cheating because they can't go as fast. (and aren't willing to do the work).

To give a racer a new part to race with and not expect him to tinker with it is just a bit blind. This whole forum is largely based on "how do I do this, how do I do that, what's the best brush, what's the best battery", and when somebody finds something that has a potential to build power, a certain group get up in arms and are appalled by it.
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Old 01-21-2008, 08:57 PM   #257
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I'm glad my little drama was appreciated. I'll be signing autographs at the door. :-)

Yes, it's all rather melodramatic, but some people still seem to have gotten the wrong idea. I hope we can learn from this and be more responsible in the future.
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Old 01-21-2008, 08:59 PM   #258
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syndr0me - Amen... now burn the soap box....
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Old 01-21-2008, 09:06 PM   #259
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syndr0me - Amen... now burn the soap box....
But I...

Oh fine. :-)
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Old 01-21-2008, 09:11 PM   #260
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Yes, they are saying they don't endorse overcharging. But... they didn't exactly come down hard on it.

It's a classic... "It will give you the edge you need to beat the next guy, but don't do it. It's bad. *wink wink*"

Maybe we are reading between the lines too much... but a lot of us are reading the same thing.

Contrast what Jack and Danny have said... with what Rick Howart said. It's completely different.

If morons start doing this (after all, SMC says there's a huge advantage doing it) and we start hearing about lipos going nuclear at the track, then SMC gets what they want. Welcome back to Nimh....

There needs to be a mandatory voltage check in tech at any ROAR or other big race. That should put a stop to it at big races where guys are more likely to do it to win at any cost. Club racing could do so as they choose... even occasional checking might get any cheaters to stop.
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Old 01-21-2008, 09:14 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by Josh Cyrul View Post
Losi boy - Neither Jack nor Danny gave instructions how to do this... Tony did... He is not a SMC rep.... Get over it...
But tony was told by them to post it and then tony asked them if they wanted him to remove it and they said no.
They also stated that tony did there testing for them.
Not a rep.... bet a trusted opinion by them.....
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Old 01-21-2008, 09:27 PM   #262
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LINGER - thank you for all the information you have shared with us especially understanding how lipo catches fire, this information is very informative to us racers. Lipos are fairly new to racers but is the future because of its capability to recharge more than once a day and more charge cycles. But again there are alot more we need to know due to, as you said, their tendency to be volatile under certain (extreme) conditions.

That being said, I do agree with alot of racers that we should not push the envelope and start getting the maximum from these cells as a few have suggested. We dont want a newbie or a young racer trying these charge rates and getting hurt or hurting others. There are other ways to get faster, practice, fix your set ups, gearing, getting a faster motor (how fast can we go with these BL motors that the effect of getting 1V more is negligible) and lastly PRACTICE.

just my 2 cents
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Old 01-21-2008, 09:40 PM   #263
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Danny is a specialist with extracting maximum performance from batteries and that's why SMC has had incredible batteries for all these years. The talk about lipo is how equal they are and there is nothing special you can do to push the performance of course made someone like Danny very skeptical and sent on a mission to see if this is true or if there is ways to get that competitive edge. I don't know how much Danny and Tony have spoken about this so it's hard to say what information they have exchanged. Reguardless, it's been proven to make a huge difference - Not as everyone origionally claimed. In my opinion, that's why Danny wanted it to stay up there - To inform everyone that this perfect little box that was to be the savior of electric r/c (Jesus in a plastic box) was not as it seemed. There needs to be rules and there needs to be a close eye kept to make the use of these cells not only fair but safe for everyone involved.... Danny is super good with batteries but a lot of the time his posts/intent come off in a way that leave people open to speculation to take in what ever direction they choose. Of course, being the obsessive racer types we all are, a lot of times that is taken in a negative direction that leads to slam bashing threads like this...
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Old 01-21-2008, 09:45 PM   #264
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Maybe somebody at every track should be doing a random voltage
check on practically ever car that has a lipo in it? Max is what, 8.4??
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Old 01-21-2008, 09:45 PM   #265
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Unless I'm wrong, earlier in this thread on Danny stated that cycling Lipo's would improve their performance and they did have memory effect, (not taking temperature rises each consecutive cycle, and other factors such as refreshing of the chemicals inside during practice, normal cycles etc into consideration as Linger suggested earlier for that effect to take place) then Danny indicated to wait until one of his team driver come on the thread post his findings and the procedures in order to obtain it, to further elaborate on the memory effect.

He did say there was a procedure for doing so, and you need to cycle Lipo’s for them to be competitive with their NiMh’s counter parts. In other words…hinting that a procedure similar to one of his team driver’s posted would have to be done in order to achieve that higher performance effect. I’m not entirely sure, but I also feel that as others have said, he isn’t all that excited about Lipo’s as the said they aren’t all that great as some claim they are, especially compared with the NiMh’s that he states you need to have in order to be competitive.

Note: I'm not disputing Lipo's have a memory effect, my point is, they aren't that apparent as our NiMh's cousins to warrant the deep cycling and over charge procedures described earlier, before hitting the track.

In addition: I would imagine all you have to do is drop a wind on the motor to make the car faster or change the gearing if you are equipped with Lipo’s. Another thing is from my understanding, Lipo’s are capable of delivering unbelievably higher amp draw far beyond what a NiMh is capable of for a low wind motor. Now if you ran them with a mild motor, I understand where Lipo’s fall short because the mild motors (10.5, 13.5 etc, and 27T stock) aren’t asking for as much amperage along with the lower up front voltage of the Lipos, and the higher voltage of the NiMh’s makes the cars equipped with NiMh’s faster around the track than those with Lipo’s. Now if you put in a low wind motor (i.e. 3.5, 4.5), the differences in performance between Lipo’s and NiMh’s become more and very apparent, as the advantages of the Lipo’s becomes obvious as it’s capable of delivering all the amps and beyond of what a mod motor could ever ask for.

That being said, I like the idea of taking 3 Lipo’s pack to the track, than 10+ NiMh’s packs. That was among one of the reason why I plan to switch over, but that might mean less NiMh’s sales and profit for battery matcher if I ever went that route, go figure. Maybe I should try the above procedure so I can buy Lipo’s more often? J/k
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Old 01-21-2008, 09:54 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by OldNSlow2 View Post
Tornado,
[B]B]
"After the pack has completed a normal charge, re-peak with your Lipo GFX on NIHM mode at 10 amps. Let the pack overcharge to 9.00 volts and then stop the GFX. DO NOT WALK AWAY during this process as the pack may cause fire and safety dangers if voltage exceeds 9.25."


This is exactly the kind of treatment nobody should be putting on the Internet. It is dangerous and will probably lead to injury, eventually. I can't imagine SMC has any interest in promoting this type of abuse and probably would be happy if it wasn't even on a thread about their product (at least I hope so).
How many freaking warnings does this guy have to put up. He said it is dangerous ten freaking times. If you don't agree with his freaking charging methods then don't freaking do it. Man alive. If someone reads well enough to follow his charging methods then they certainly read his ten freaking warnings about it being dangerous. [/
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Old 01-21-2008, 09:57 PM   #267
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4wd racer - In oval and on-road racing (especially in the stock, 19t type classes) voltage, IR and I guess the new standard "C" will rule supreme as you can always use more power. You are pretty correct in your statment reguarding modified except in the TC and oval world you only have 20 guys that this effects where you have hunderds maybe even thousands that this effects in the stock and 19T (10.5, 13.5, 17.5) classes. Again, lipo's are new to the high end racing world so people are going to play to learn how to get the max from them. As Danny posted - if simply heating the packs before a run will make them perform like cycling will then great. It will save the numerous cycles to get them to run stronger.
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Old 01-21-2008, 10:04 PM   #268
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Property damage? People could die. I'm not offended, I'm horrified. If racing has become so intense that we're willing to endanger people's lives to gain an edge, then I want out right now. I'll start by selling my collection of PRS pinions.

This isn't a LiPo problem, this is a fundamental flaw in the mentality of people using them. I urge any of you reading this that own tracks to immediately ban the practice, and permanently remove someone caught doing it.

If the PRS gears are 64p I will take them. What gears do you have and how much do you want for them?
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Old 01-21-2008, 10:13 PM   #269
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Josh... can't argue with your comments.

No doubt the lipo "voodoo" is going to happen one way or another.... just like all the methods used with nickel packs... cycling, deadshorting, etc etc.

I would add... concerning this thread:

1. Some of the claims made by SMC are possible but not proven. Fro example, the cycling data posted really doesn't mean jack without knowing the temp of the pack during this test. Was it the cycling or was it just the temps or a little of both? The jury is still out on the memory effect. I'm not saying it can't be true... but there's got to be a lot more evidence than what we have seen to make such claims.

2. SMC is shouting from the rooftops that Lipos aren't what they were supposed to be and trying really hard to show how you DO in fact need voodoo tricks to be competitive etc. Sounds like a big fat "I told you so..."

But the thing is.... what they are using as evidence to show how lipos aren't that great afterall... happens to be illegal, let alone unsafe and ultimately very bad for the battery.
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Old 01-21-2008, 10:21 PM   #270
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Sounds good to me Josh, I do see your side as well, and agree with you on those points you brought up. That being said, perhaps in that case a product could be developed eventually (similar to tire warmer, but on a bigger scale to wrap the pack as a whole) to pre-heat the Lipo pack to an user set cut-off temperature before a qualifier/race, to offset the need for the other deep cycling/charge procedures described previously to obtain the maximum effect from the Lipo.

If racers could be persuaded to go this route, instead of the other way, it maybe be more ideal and safer, and perhaps more effective far as cycle life goes. Bringing up Lipo's to a certain temperature to obtain maximum performance has been known for a long time in other areas, maybe it wasn't around long enough in the r/c car side & matchers of the market for racers to catch onto that effect. I'm not sure, but whatever we do to obtain maximum performances, whether it is a NiMh or Lipo pack, it would be more idea to stay within the boundaries of ROAR stated rules to do so, regardless if it was done at the track or at home (your house) for the safety of yourself and those in the surrounding areas.
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