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Old 01-21-2008, 06:42 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer View Post
You have 8 guys in a club racing 1/12th stock, no other drivers, just these 8. One of them is hands down better than the rest. How do you solve that? Force him to race by himself? The guy is likely a "pro-level" driver. Or at the very least is considered so by the guys he's racing with.

Anybody know the ratio of ROAR members that actually attend a ROAR nationals? Or ratio of ROAR members that actually attend a ROAR regionals?
Why would a lonely 8 run stock?
Because the slowest one would leave if they ran mod.
I think club racing is for practice racing to be more prepared for the big show. It hardly compares to a natl' event.
Yet thats 8 and on A CLUB NIGHT THAT USED TO DRAW 40. If your a mod racer you race mod. Or you practice. Some one will get cocky and try you out.
I would like to know the ratio to actually.

I'm an X sedan club racer and its due mostly to the reason of stock racing. I just could not bare to deal with the regiment any longer tried to get some mod going and was all but stoned for it.
I've seen 1st hand the anguish of a new racer tying to keep up and the discouragement of not getting better in a class that should be an entry level if only for the fact theres no beginners class. It seems the healthy programs all have a mod class.

I always say if I ran in a natl' event I would not run stock, I feel my chances of winning would be greater in a faster class.
I think there is an intimidation factor or something.
I'm far from a graduate to the study of stock racing. But as club racer my odds of a fair race are in mod.

I truly prefer sedan racing but currently found the speed in off road 1/8th scale racing.
Going FAST and try not to crash is more fun.
Is there a beginners class?
Its a great debate though and no fighting yet.
I'm not quite for sponsored stock racers yet. But would agree that its ok in the super stock 19t equivalent class.
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Old 01-21-2008, 06:45 PM   #137
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Paid drivers in stock? I'm assuming you believe that there actually are RC racers who race nothing but stock and 19 turn for their full time job? Let me go ahead and just tell you that this belief is incorrect. Are there incentives, yes, but lets be a tad bit realistic here. If there are those of you who still don't believe this, then you're probably of the same mindset to believe that Elvis didn't die, aliens built the pyramids, and 9-11 was a government conspiracy.
Aliens didn't build the pyramids?
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Old 01-21-2008, 07:26 PM   #138
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I like the rule. I think it should be taken even farther. Make the podium 3 times and you are out. Vegas IIC, Halloween Classic, Indoor Champs, Snowbirds, and ROAR Nationals should all follow the win and you're out rule.

In all honesty. The more I think about it. There are only a handful of guys that really should move out of stock. They have won or been on the podium so many times now. This would also help revise modified racing. Most of these guys (you know who they are) would do well in modified. They are a highly talented group of individuals. I am not taking anything away from them and I love racing with them, but lets race in super stock and not "stock".

Another problem is the manufacturers giving 100% deals, travel, and incentives to win stock races. Do it for super stock and modified. With incentives to win stock races people are never going to move out of it.
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Old 01-21-2008, 07:28 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by JamesArluck View Post
Sounds like ROAR should just come up with a "you must be slower than ______ to race stock" rule.

I think 5 years is way too long of a time period, 1 year, maybe 2 is sufficient. But really I think this is a poor rule in general. The majority of these "pro" stock drivers are top level regional drivers who have day jobs like everybody else. If one of these guys wins the nats and can't run stock for 5 years, they either have to put in the time and effort to be able to run with the "real pros" (people who get paid to do nothing but race mod 24/7), or risk losing their travel deals because they can't hang in mod.
The class for those guys is superstock
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Old 01-21-2008, 08:00 PM   #140
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Here's a nutty idea to bounce around with:

Eliminate all of these class distinctions and make just one class

I fail to see the need to have 8 classes at a large event. 19 turn was originally pioneered so people could extend their big race dollar by having more track time. Does anyone else remember when the Indoor champs was just 12th scale stock and mod? You ran one or the other, that's it. Racing was much less expensive and the racing was as close as I ever remember. With one class, you have one national champion, sponsored drivers still keep their motor sponsors, and big races return to a schedule that resembles a leisure activity and not an exercise in sweatshop RC mechanics.

One class comes to mind that has enjoyed large success and doesnt have this kind of complaining; 1/8th buggy. Everyone nationally runs the same class, same motor size, etc. If we want to save on-road racing, the more systemic problem is the further dilution of sedan and 12th scale. Stock sponsored racers are not the problem with the current racing scene.

We can entrust ROAR to come to an agreed motor size, say 10.5 brushless, and go with that. The more we dilute racing, the more problems we're going to create.
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Old 01-21-2008, 08:20 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Bigdaddyswank View Post
The more we dilute racing, the more problems we're going to create.
I used to not agree with this. My reasoning came from Airplane racing events. They have more classes than college. Until I went to 1/8th scale racing.
I was reading Mr. Stormers thread and the thought came over me that every one qualifying together with resorts could divide the classes for the mains.

Similar to a break out type of racing system.
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Old 01-22-2008, 01:26 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by onroad_racer View Post
I like the rule. I think it should be taken even farther. Make the podium 3 times and you are out. Vegas IIC, Halloween Classic, Indoor Champs, Snowbirds, and ROAR Nationals should all follow the win and you're out rule.
The IIC, the Novak, Cleveland, the Halloween Classic and the Birds are all way more popular than the Carpet Nats mainly because they are NOT like a ROAR race.
Sure the classes are based off of ROAR rules but there are very few rules.
Do you really think these races are going to ban the winner, or podium guys, from stock for 5 years
People vote with their attendance. If everyone was so upset about sponsored guys racing the stock class don't you think attendance would be off in the stock classes at these races?
I sure ain't going to spend the money to go to Vegas just to run against the same caliber of racers I can race at home at a Sat night club race.... I want to run against the BEST drivers... and they just happen to be sponsored guys And no... I am not going to race stock all year (about all we run around here) and then try to run mod at one or two races a year... so that leaves stock for me.
You don't become a successful promoter of a major race by being stupid... and to make the sponsored stock races feel unwelcome is stupid.
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Old 01-22-2008, 03:32 AM   #143
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a couple of years ago a purfect example was alex lopez. great guy, great driver.. I ran stock sedan with him in 04 at the paved nats.. Xray driver, multiple stock national chanpionships.. I think those are the guys the rules might be targeted to.. but since alex, I don't recall seeing the same person in the winners circle in stock..
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Old 01-22-2008, 07:51 AM   #144
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Questions:

Who won ROAR Nats the last five years?

Has that person been the same driver all five years?

If you win a ROAR Nats, don't RC company like at you to run their stuff if you aren't already and you move up in the sponsored "ranks?"

Aren't we only talking about five guys (or gals) that are really effected by this ruling?

Is this rule cross platform - meaning if a driver wins off-road stock but have never ran an on-road sedan or 12th scale and they pick one up are they ban from running it the next five years?

Isn't another reason Super Stock/19T came to be was (yes tracktime) but to increase entries and help support the hobby?

What does ROAR have to say about this ruling exactly and why did they pick five years?

I have my opinions as do you guys and I think this forum is great. I'm on the fence with this one, but in reality how much will it really affect the average racer over five years? (average racer means racer not basher)

Got to go to work!! I look forward to seeing what you guys think.

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Old 01-22-2008, 08:06 AM   #145
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I'm going to be so late!

One more question:

How about the idea of returning Champion - If you win two years in a row then you're out for five years. You proved you are the best and now its time to move up. Plus what about racers two and three - thinking "Next year you're going down!" Create competition to get more racers to racing.

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Old 01-22-2008, 08:16 AM   #146
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I look at it like F1, where every one is sponsored. Imagine if no one was except the top 5.
I my self got sick of the same driver week after week after week. I lost interest.
Same with super bike suzuki suzuki suzuki. And thats fair? Its all driver? Who knows. But I lost interest just the same as if I see Ricky Carmichael win again I'm going to have to start watching polo. In super bike you watch the privateers get lapped and the announcer talk how well there doing and all that good stuff. Then bodda bing bodda boop. Then there sponsored and running up front with the big boys.
In RC thats not good for the class I don't think.

The 5 year I think is to effect the podium of the top 5 from a previous year to year. It will insure the Schumacher's don't dominate the class.
I think if it encourages more stock beginners then great. If not? Then there will be 13.5 next year. If the 17.5 doesn't take off then its right back where we are now. Open stock.
All you hear is attendance is down the pros and cons are both ways. Club and big events.
My hats off for roar to take a bold step at trying to increase attendance.
Every one says slow is faster. Well now they can run close and more consistent with a 17.5.

There used to be a fella posting around here by the name MR. BLACK. His signature said it all.
Its good to see roar try and make a class to draw more racers. Than a class some one can win at.
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Old 01-22-2008, 08:59 AM   #147
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if you go by numbers, you honestly may be better off running mod
heres the deal... given these numbers are a few days old, but they are taken off www.2008roarnats.com

1/12th stock - 43
Touring 13.5 Rubber - 34
Touring Stock - 26
1/12th Super Stock - 22
Touring Super Stock - 7
1/12 Modified - 5
Touring Modified - 3

there are a total of 8 cars running mod.....
there are a total of 69 cars running stock.....
and 29 running super stock.....

what does this have to say about the debate....
regardless of speed, mod guys may only run a lap or 2 faster than stock guys, hell I should sign up for Mod sedan and have a definate A main finish....

seriously there are guys that need to be in mod that are not. 5 years may be steep, but thats the point is to get them to move up. just my $.2
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Old 01-22-2008, 10:23 AM   #148
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I think ROAR is looking at the big picture.

If you force the really good guys (sponsored or not) out of stock, then he will stop practicing stock at his home track. He move up to the next class for the big races and his local club races too. (will not waste his time setting up a stock class car he can not run at the big events).

Which will open up the local track stock class for beginners.

Which will bring more new racers into hobby.

More racers = more money = more tracks!
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Old 01-22-2008, 10:43 AM   #149
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Am I the only one that thinks this is retarted? 1 Driver every year is going to do nothing. There are 20 guys at any given race that have a chance at winning stock. Removing one guy is going to do nothing.
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Old 01-22-2008, 11:03 AM   #150
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Am I the only one that thinks this is retarted? 1 Driver every year is going to do nothing. There are 20 guys at any given race that have a chance at winning stock. Removing one guy is going to do nothing.
You are big time stock driver. If all your buddies you were used to running with move up isnt it going to encourage you to move up too? You arent going to feel great about beating the guy you have never heard of. I think thats the idea...

If the top 5 guys move up I can guarentee you there are going to be another 5-15 that move up to in order to keep racing those guys. They arent going to want to feel like they were left back in the "minor leagues".
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