R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-16-2008, 06:54 AM   #1
Tech Elite
 
yyhayyim's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Weston, FL
Posts: 3,424
Trader Rating: 26 (100%+)
Default ROAR Approves LIPO

ROAR President Dawn Sanchez has announced that ROAR has finally approved Lipo 7.4v for racing! It would be really nice for ROAR/Dawn to please explain what the LIpo rules and parameters are so we can all know and adjust if needed!
yyhayyim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2008, 06:57 AM   #2
Tech Addict
 
mtbboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Winnipeg. Igloo. Hockey. Beer.
Posts: 715
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Oh boy, here we go.
__________________
Team Associated Reedy factory team driver.
B5M Factory lite $ B44.3 Factory $ TC6.2 $ RC12R 5.1
Reedy 410 Speedos $ Reedy Mach Series motors
204 Raceway Winnipeg 1/10-1/8 Offroad. Owner.
mtbboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2008, 07:05 AM   #3
Tech Elite
 
yyhayyim's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Weston, FL
Posts: 3,424
Trader Rating: 26 (100%+)
Default

Finally! Dawn Sanchez will soon annouce the specs, which will be basically:

hard cased, 7.4v, and certain safety measures. Also, they'll use a volt-meter to tech Lipos...before or after runs- it must read under 8.4v. If its over your disqualified...

Let's wait for their official report
yyhayyim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2008, 07:14 AM   #4
Tech Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Motown, Dub Vee
Posts: 460
Trader Rating: 19 (100%+)
Default

Posting in a legendary thread.
__________________
***Proudly supporting The Fist: "Hope everyone improve their lap time. Don't be stubborn."***

R.I.P. Tommy Kraimer, 28 time UK Champion, 4 time JMRCA champion, and engineering mastermind behind the TKX-10. The world will never be the same.
Zaner24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2008, 07:14 AM   #5
Tech Champion
 
Nova F1 Racer's Avatar
R/C Tech Charter Subscriber
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Peoples Republic of Northern Virginia
Posts: 5,682
Trader Rating: 3 (100%+)
Default

I just looked on the ROAR site and did not see any news about this...
__________________
This is DICK!!! And you're NOT!
RC Tech member #11
Aussie Rules Footy, Brisbane LIONS!!
[url]http://www.pitter-pat.com/[/url] for pet care needs in Northern Virginia
Nova F1 Racer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2008, 07:17 AM   #6
Tech Elite
 
ChrisP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Shelby Twp, MI
Posts: 2,046
Trader Rating: 8 (100%+)
Default

The ExComm have only JUST met on this...

Minutes from the meeting and official announcements will be coming soon.
ChrisP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2008, 07:18 AM   #7
Tech Champion
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 5,360
Trader Rating: 38 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nova F1 Racer View Post
I just looked on the ROAR site and did not see any news about this...
She posted it in the B/L debate thread and said the minutes would be up later today.

This is great news. Lots of positive changes happening in RC.
or8ital is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2008, 07:20 AM   #8
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chandler, Arizona
Posts: 3,273
Send a message via AIM to Dawn Sanchez
Default

Yes, lithium battery technology is approved in ROAR sanctioned events.

The specs/rules will be in the 2008 rule book which should be available for download within a week (lots of reformatting to do) and the new approval forms for industry affiliates wishing for product approval will be online soon as well.

This is what will be formatted into the current rule book... difficult to follow if you are looking for rule numbers. But, has the information requested.

8.3 BATTERY RULES
8.3.1 Ni-Cd or NiMh Batteries
8.3.1.1 Shall be sub-C size rechargeable batteries rated at 1.2 volts or less.
8.3.1.2 Dimensions
8.3.1.3 (see 8.3.3 of 2007 rule book)
8.3.1.4 (see 8.3.4 of 2007 rule book)
8.3.1.5 (see 8.3.5 of 2007 rule book)
8.3.1.6 (see 8.3.6 of 2007 rule book)
8.3.1.7 (see 8.3.7 of 2007 rule book)
8.3.1.8 (see 8.3.8 of 2007 rule book)
8.3.1.9 (see 8.3.9 of 2007 rule book)
8.3.1.10 (see 8.3.10 of 2007 rule book)
8.3.1.11 (see 8.3.11 of 2007 rule book)
8.3.1.12 (see 8.3.12 of 2007 rule book)
8.3.1.13 (see 8.3.13 of 2007 rule book)
8.3.1.14 (see 8.3.14 of 2007 rule book)

8.3.2 Lithium Polymer Batteries (Li-Poly)
8.3.2.1 Lithium Polymer battery packs may be used to power electric racing cars if a Certification Of Compliance has been received and accepted by ROAR from the manufacturers of the battery packs. The Certification of Compliance indicates that the Lithium Polymer cells internal to the battery packs have been tested in accordance with UN T1-T8, the United Nations Recommendations on the Transport of Dangerous Goods, Manual of Test and Criteria (ST/SG/AC.10.11/Rev.4) and passed the acceptance criteria. Lithium Polymer battery packs that do not have UN certification must pass the ROAR testsROAR tests listed below and performed by the ROAR Li-Poly Test laboratory. Certification of Compliance to these test requirements and acceptance criteria shall be provided by the Original Manufacturer of the batteries. The Certification of Compliance will apply to all Lithium-Polymer products from the Original Manufacturer and provided on a one time basis. The Certification of Compliance can be sent directly to ROAR by the Original Manufacturer or supplied to ROAR by the Value Added Manufacturer that distributes the batteries. A Value Added Manufacturer must also provide ROAR a Statement of Origin identifying the Original Manufacturer of the cells used in the battery pack and the number of battery packs provided for sale within North America. The Value Added Manufacturer performs the assembly of cells into battery packs, installs the hard protective case and provides the electrical hook up points. The Original Manufacturer is the manufacturer of the individual cells.
8.3.2.2 Item Description
8.3.2.2.1 Li-Poly battery packs must have a hard, protective case that surrounds the cell(s) in the racing application. The maximum case size shall be as follows:
Length: 139mm +0mm/-3mm
Width: 47mm +0mm/-2mm
Height: 25.1mm +0mm/-3.0mm
The battery pack shall have leads extending from the case for the positive and negative electrical connections using wire of adequate size to handle discharge rates acceptable to racing applications. Alternatively, the case shall have external connection points for these wires clearly marked positive and negative so the user can apply the lead wires. Markings on the case are required stating the rated voltage and capacity of the battery. The Value Added Manufacturers name and/or logo shall be easily readable on the case. Individual cells used in the construction of the battery shall be rated at 3.7 VDC and the pack shall be 2 cells in series.
8.3.2.3 ROAR Impact/Drop Test
8.3.2.3.1 The cells of the battery pack shall experience no loss of mass, no leakage, no venting, no rapid disassembly, and no rise in temperature. The case shall not splinter or shatter in a manner that would create shrapnel and potentially puncture the cell inside.
8.3.2.3.2 The fully charged battery pack shall be dropped from a height of 5 feet to a flat concrete floor. The battery pack shall land flat on the floor during the drop.
8.3.2.4 ROAR Overcharge Test
8.3.2.4.1 The battery pack shall no display rapid disassembly resulting from Thermal Runaway.
8.3.2.4.2 The fully charged battery pack shall be charged to a value up to 12.0 VDC at a rate of 1 times the capacity of the cells in the battery pack for a period of 30 minutes (Example: 5000 mahr charge rate is 5 amps).
8.3.2.5 ROAR External Short Circuit Test
8.3.2.5.1 The battery pack shall not display rapid disassembly resulting from Thermal Runaway.
8.3.2.5.2 A 0.1 Ohm resistance shall be applied to a fully charged battery pack at room temperature (70 deg F +/-10). The test is concluded when the temperature of the battery pack returns to within10 deg of room temperature.
8.3.2.6 Li-Poly Battery Pack Approval
8.3.2.6.1 Li-Poly battery approvals will take place twice per year. Manufacturers applying for approval shall submit 4 battery packs to the ROAR Li-Poly baterybattery laboratory before April 1st or before October 1st of each calendar year. The results of each approval cycle will be announced either May 1st or November 1st of each calendar year on the approved battery list on the ROAR Website. Please find the battery approval form for Li-Poly batteries in the Approvals section of the ROAR website. Detailed instructions for submitting Li-Poly battery packs are provided on that form. A fee of $250.00 US is required to cover the testing costs by the laboratory.
8.3.2.7 General information about Li-Poly batteries.
8.3.2.7.1 Lithium Polymer packs must be charged with chargers capable of the industry standard CC/CV (Constant Current/Constant Voltage) charge profile.
8.3.2.7.2 Li-Poly batteries may be charged to a maximum of 8.40V +/-0.04V. Overcharging is a serious safety hazard and will not be tolerated.
8.3.2.7.3 All Lithium Polymer packs used for motor power must be charged inside a “Lipo Sack” or similar fire mitigation device proven to withstand a minimum of an 8.4v 5000mah Lithium Polymer pack failing destructively without showing external flame.
8.3.2.7.4 A Lipo battery pack is damaged when any of the following rules are broken. The damage is cumulative and cannot be reversed. These rules provide the safest operation and longest pack life. Going outside these rules may result in a destructive pack failure.
8.3.2.7.4.1 Do not over discharge Lithium Polymer battery packs and use a Proper ESC cutoff voltage. Some newer speed controls give you the option to set a cutoff voltage, and some do not. The cutoff voltage setting is working properly when the ESC does not allow the motor to spin anymore when the pack voltage reaches this set cutoff. A Lithium Polymer battery is damaged when it goes below a set voltage whether under load or not. The lower the voltage and the longer it stays low, the more damage is occurring to the cells. If your ESC doesn't have a setting for cutoff voltage, we strongly suggest not using any lipo pack with it unless you have a secondary device to cut off the motor at the correct voltage. By the time the pack “feels soft” at the end of the run or you notice any decrease in power, the pack has already been damaged. Consult your Lipo pack manufacturer for the proper low voltage cutoff since this value varies based on manufacturer.
8.3.2.7.4.2 The maximum safe temperature of a Lithium Polymer pack is 140degF. Generally the pack temp will INCREASE for about 5-10mins after the run is over, so measure the temperature of the pack immediately after the run and then again about 10 minutes later. The faster the car is geared, the more amps the motor is drawing and the battery is delivering. The less capable of outputting high current (amps) the pack is, the more it will heat up with the same load (think IB4200's vs. NiCad 2400's on a mod motor) Exceeding 140degF pack temperature causes damage, and the pack is also less efficient at near critical temperatures.
8.3.2.7.4.3 Only charge Lithium Polymer packs with a charger that uses the industry standard CC/CV charging algorithm for Lithium based batteries. There are two settings you will need to either set or verify on your charger each and every time before you begin charging a pack. The first is the pack voltage or cell count (each charger uses different nomenclature). If your charger is asking for the voltage of the pack, the choices are 3.7v (one cell), 7.4v (two cell), and 11.1v and beyond (3+cells). ROAR legal Lithium packs are all two cell, or 7.4v packs so set your charger accordingly. Some chargers ask for the cell count of the pack (one cell, two cells, and etc.) so you would set it for a two cell pack. The next setting is the charging rate. Lithium Polymer battery packs not only show no performance benefit from charging at higher than recommended rates, but they can be damaged by charging rates that are too high. The standard charging rate is “1C” which means the actual capacity of the pack in Milliamp hours. We charge in Amps not Milliamps, so divide the Milliamp Hours (Mah) of your pack by 1,000 to get your proper charging rate. For a 4800mah pack, 4800mah divided by 1,000 = 4.8 Amp charge rate. For a 3200Mah pack = 3.2 Amps, and a 5000Mah pack = 5.0 Amps. Unless specifically recommended by the manufacturer with no loss of cycle life, a maximum of 1C charge rate should always be used.
8.3.2.7.4 Lithium Polymer packs that will not be run for more than a month or two should be stored approximately half charged. Do not store them fully charged and do not store them near fully discharged (down to 6.0v) or damage will occur. The best way to know the charge state of a lipo is to use the Mah displayed on your charger when charging from fully discharged. For a 5000mah pack driven all the way to cutoff, charge it until you have 2500mah back into the pack and disconnect it from the charger for storage. Or use the discharge function on your charger, and discharge a fully charged pack to 1/2 of its capacity. So for a fully charged 5000mah pack, discharge 2500mah from it before long term storage.
8.3.2.7.5 There are six main root causecauses for lithium ion/polymer battery fires.
8.3.2.7.5.1 External Thermal Damage – Lithium Polymer cells will get damaged by external heat. Most manufacturers recommend keeping the cells under 60 deg C or 176 deg F. At about 90 deg C (194 deg F), the cell will start to balloon up as the electrolytes starts to break down and the internal layers start to delaminate. If the temperature is extremely severe (approx 190 deg C or 375 deg F) – the cell will go into thermal runaway and you will have a flaming mess. The thermal volatility is directly related to the cell chemistry used by the manufacturer.
8.3.2.7.5.2 Overcharge – Lithium Polymer cells are extremely non tolerant to an overcharge condition. A standard charge profile is CC/CV to 4.200V. Drastically overcharging a cell just once is a sure way to send a cell into thermal runaway. Overcharging a cell slightly but repeatedly is also extremely detrimental for a cell. For example, it you charge a cell to 4.300V, the lithium ions start plating on the electrodes forming lithium metal. Lithium ions are not flammable, but lithium metal is. Every slight overcharge cycle will plate more and more lithium metal resulting in a battery that is very prone to igniting. The best way to prevent overcharging is to charge through a balancer and to avoid chargers that do not charge with the standard 4.200V CC/CV charge profile.
8.3.2.7.5.3 OverdischargeOver discharge - overdischargingover discharging by itself is not dangerous, but it will destroy the cell. Overdischarging below the recommended cutoff voltage will cause the copper to start dissolving in the electrolyte. The dissolved copper will then start plating on the electrodes which may start an internal short circuit within the cell. The safety of the cell is compromised once the plating action starts and the next charge/discharge cycle will be of concern since there is now an internal short circuit. Don’t store you cells completely discharged. All cells have a small self discharge when left alone and if the self discharge takes the cell down below its minimum voltage, then the cell will be destroyed. It is recommended to disconnect the battery from all electronics (remove from speed controls, disconnect lithium polymer receiver packs from regulators etc) since most electronics have a small current drain even in the “off” position.
8.3.2.7.5.4 External Short Circuit – Lithium Polymer batteries have extreme current capability. When these cells are shorted out, the excessive current drain will cause the battery to overheat and possibly cause the cells to go into thermal runaway resulting in a possible fire.
8.3.2.7.5.5 Internal Short Circuit - this is mostly caused by contaminants getting into the cell at the cell manufacturing level. Contaminants can poke through the separator over time causing an interalinternal short where one of two things can happen. An internal short result in the cell having a high self discharge rate. Or an internal short can cause localizedcause localized heat buildup and initiate a thermal runaway condition – and thus another possible fire. Another source of internal shorts is the punching process the manufacturer uses to stamp out the anode and cathode electrodes. Some manufacturers use a low cost steel rule die and others manufacturers use a die that costs a couple orders of magnitude more. The lower cost steel die punchspunches tend to leave burrs on the electrodes, while the higher cost dies do not. Burrs have a tendency to puncture the separator and create micro-shorts. This micro-short will create an area of localized heat. In most cases, this will cause the cell to expand (puff up). In bad cases, this localized heat may be enough to ignite the cell. Every time you charge a cell, the cell will expand about 5% in the thickness dimension. This expansion/contraction may cause the burr to eventually rub through the separator. The vibrations and shock from RC use also causes the burr to rub against the separator. The infamous Sony recall was largely attributed to burr type contaminants.
8.3.2.7.5.6 External Mechanical Damage - A lithium polymer battery is made up of 20-30 layers of a very thin sheet copper anode, a thin plastic separator and a thin aluminum cathode. The vacuum sealed aluminum pouch keeps even pressure on the anode/cathode pairs. A dent can create a micro-short by making the stiff metal anode or cathode poke through the soft plastic separator. This microshort will create an area of localized heat. The cell will expand and then becomes a possible fire hazard. Another repercussion of a dent is that some layers of the cell will become delaminated and thus inactive. This means that the working layers will need to work harder to provide current and thus generate more heat in a localized area. ROAR believes that hard cases will greatly minimize the chance of external mechanical damage to the cells.
Dawn Sanchez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2008, 07:24 AM   #9
Tech Adept
 
ToddFalkowski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Goshen, IN
Posts: 164
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Send a message via Yahoo to ToddFalkowski
Thumbs up

Impressive post, Dawn.
ToddFalkowski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2008, 07:25 AM   #10
Tech Elite
 
PaintingRoly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I got your force right here
Posts: 2,822
Trader Rating: 56 (100%+)
Default

When do we get an approved list?
__________________
follow me @RC3grafix on Instagram for pictures of my paint work.
PaintingRoly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2008, 07:26 AM   #11
Tech Elite
 
nitro neil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: zion,il
Posts: 2,179
Trader Rating: 73 (100%+)
Default

WOW that is a lot to read. so what are considered legal?
nitro neil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2008, 07:28 AM   #12
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chandler, Arizona
Posts: 3,273
Send a message via AIM to Dawn Sanchez
Default

so far, nobody has sent any in yet... They will..

basically, 7.4v batterys in a hard case will be approved if they pass the safety tests, of which there are three.

The big one is the overcharge test (its in there... gotta find it in that huge post).

They are approved in 6 cell, sub-c NiCd and NimH classes only.

Dawn
Dawn Sanchez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2008, 07:39 AM   #13
Tech Regular
 
rcarmchl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Collierville, TN
Posts: 492
Trader Rating: 15 (100%+)
Default

hey Dawn...

Now that Lipo's appear to be legal...any word on a weight concessions for them?
__________________
Blizzard Concepts ~Big-Dog Graphics

Cyclone ~ Orion ~ LRP Sphere ~ S9550
M03 ~ Orion ~ LRP QC3 ~ S9550
RC18R ~ Castle Creations ~ Hi-tec
Slash ~ 9550 ~ SMC Power
8ight-T~9550~V-Spec
rcarmchl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2008, 07:40 AM   #14
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chandler, Arizona
Posts: 3,273
Send a message via AIM to Dawn Sanchez
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcarmchl View Post
hey Dawn...

Now that Lipo's appear to be legal...any word on a weight concessions for them?
No weight changes will be reflected in the rule book..... you'll have to add weight in most cases to your vehicles.
Dawn Sanchez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2008, 07:43 AM   #15
Tech Fanatic
 
Frank McKinney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: A Yank in England
Posts: 755
Default

Wow...progress? Good work! Lots of stuff seems to be happening. (won't comment on the White House or anything )

Quote:
8.3.2.7.3 All Lithium Polymer packs used for motor power must be charged inside a “Lipo Sack” or similar fire mitigation device proven to withstand a minimum of an 8.4v 5000mah Lithium Polymer pack failing destructively without showing external flame.
^^ this will probably sell loads of 'Lipo Sacks' now, although judging *just* from the DHI Cup reports NiMH batteries could be using these as well! What about ammo cases and similar hard, metal, clamp-shut things? Just curious, I'm not even in the US

Also, I wonder what this bodes for slowing things down like EFRA/BRCA with 5-cell.
__________________
Minimal signature to save screen space! Big sigs suX0r
Frank McKinney is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
ROAR approves LIPO and Brushless al dente Colorado Racing 12 01-23-2008 11:42 PM
Roar Approves Lipo *Chrominator* Electric Off-Road 28 01-23-2008 10:35 PM
ROAR Approves Brushless Motors chicagokenji Wisconsin & Illinois Racing 5 07-17-2007 11:40 AM
ROAR approves Batteries.. Mason Electric On-Road 33 12-18-2005 08:29 PM
ROAR Approves batteries Mason Florida Racing 0 12-16-2005 01:49 PM



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 09:51 PM.


We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net