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Old 01-16-2008, 12:27 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by ghuber View Post
In time, matchers may find a way to match lipo cells as well. I know certain companies are already looking into that.
From what I understand, the better cell companies already do this. The Orion/Kokam packs are supposed to be very closely matched, it's just not sold as a feature. The tricks that matchers use to get more voltage out of Nimh (I don't know what is/isn't practiced anymore) won't apply to LiPo. The beauty of LiPo is the consistecy. The "special" charging equiment isn't special at all, Many of the current popular choices already handle lipo (I use a duratrax ice). While NiMh does out perform Lipo from a raw voltage standpoint there is an undeniable weight advantage. In offroad it is difficult to get a car to within 5 oz. of the legal limit using 6 cell. It's going to be interesting the next few years. I may even try stock racing again!
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Old 01-16-2008, 12:41 PM   #107
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Until this lipo approval I have not heard of any one lobbying ROAR to get safer measure put in place for nimh cells (maybe they have)!

The only issue I see is how many battery matcher's will be out of a job? Do we think about these guys?
The pictures of expended shotgun shells and end casings that go flying through the air like star-shuriken should be more than enough to get the rules changed. This is why I have proposed that all batteries go through similar physical durability tests.

I'm not knockin the lipo sack requirement either - I think something similiar for all batteries to contain any sort of disfunction/disintegration is a great thing.

If anyone has seen that new mythbuster-esque show on discovery channel you'll find out that rhino-lining actually helps bomb proof a structure. I'm wondering if i can get it sprayed on my non-hard cased packs

If you look around, Battery matchers do not only match batteries. They can't afford to do just that. What were these guys doing before matching battery packs was a big thing?? Now as Ross Perot once said "The key is to diversify your funds!". My company does not build just one type of fire truck. Tamiya doesn't build just one toy car, Sears doesn't offer just one washing machine, Joe Bob's Diner doesn't serve up just one breakfast and I'm not taxed just once. If that were the case the world would be quite different place and some would argue better/worse.

Basically its hard to legislate safety differently for similar items. Tracks are different but each are required to have safety fences.. aren't they?? Batteries of any chemistry are in the immediate area of a person when its in their pit space. There is no sane reason not to legislate a safety container device for an explosive over a device that diffuses its energy in a lower, more controllable output. I am happy we aren't requiring fire-retardant/proof lockers - they aren't cheap!
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Old 01-16-2008, 12:44 PM   #108
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OK, I admit I am still a bit of a n00b in some areas of r/c racing (even after more than several years of on and off participation), particularly in the battery area, but...

I'm sorry, in the interest of safety, we/ROAR should have kept tighter restricitons on the batteries "approved" for racing. Saying a battery cell has to be rated at 1.2V but allowing it to exceed the 1.2v (up to 1.4 or higher now) is rediculous and completely negates the original rule. Again, I am no expert on batteries, but even I can tell the current Ni-MH cells look like a Pepsi can that was just run through an electric paint mixer for a few hours. The design of the casing of the cell just doesn't seem to match up to the volt and capacity they are seemingly stuffing into them these days. I swear these 4200's, 4500's, and 4600's all LOOK like 3300 cell casings that are stuffed beyond intended capacity.

I think its great that ROAR is stepping up and putting requirements/restrictions on the newer technology (Li-Po) batteries and are making efforts to keep things safe at the races, mainly the pit areas. However, we shouldn't need to go to the extreme of: charging sacks, bunkers, ammo boxes, etc. etc. In addition to safety; cost and simplicity/convenience should be on the agenda list as well. Additional $10 here and there for accessories just to charge a little battery for our toy cars adds up, and for the average hobby racer (which this entire r/c racing world is built on and counts on to survive) it can make the difference of staying in it or finding something else to spend their money on... especially now when gas prices have everyone pinching pennies.

The safety precautions are great, and its nice to know its on the mind of ROAR. However, I think the same ideas about their maximum voltage checks and impact tests they applied to the Li-Po should not only be applied to Ni-MH cells before approval, but I also think they need to be re-evaluated on the Li-Po...

Do we really need 8.4v? What was wrong with the original 7.2v? Sounds like a good way to help slow the cars down which the majority seem to think we need to do anyway. I think keeping tighter control and specs on what batteries are allowed is a great way to make things a little more safe again.

In my opinion if ROAR does have a well thought out set of minimums for approval, and does a good job of enforcing it, then down the road the charging sacks won't be needed/used anyway.



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Old 01-16-2008, 12:47 PM   #109
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and for the lipo fan boys.. your batteries will supposedly maintain there performance over time if the nano-silicon based technology gets picked up here soon. basically eatch time to nodes expand and contract with lithium the current material fractures a little bit. this nano-silicon method allows things to expand and contract without fracturing.. or so the nerd creating this technology claims.
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Old 01-16-2008, 12:49 PM   #110
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Congratulations.

I believe it is a historic decision.

Sure that will be a time known as "Before Sanchez" and a time known as "After Sanchez".

1/10 Electric RC cars are finnaly at their ANNO DOMINI.

Last edited by PDM; 01-16-2008 at 02:47 PM.
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Old 01-16-2008, 12:52 PM   #111
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Sorry, the same post twice
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Old 01-16-2008, 01:02 PM   #112
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http://www.liposack.com/video.htm
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Old 01-16-2008, 01:04 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by darchard123 View Post
I see your point about matchers! see were your coming from! I just feel for some of these small guys! we shouldn't be heartless! we not talking about big companies here! as for looking out for each others jobs your right it's a cruel world!

As for the safty I know people have been taking about it but I was simply trying to make the point that, people don't have anything to complain about when it comes to using a lipo sack! don't you think?
On the other hand I personally feel bad when small matchers or small R/C companies take hits because it is the hobby I have been doing for 24 years now and don't plan on quitting anytime soon. With technology changing daily we will see alot more of this in all areas of business not just R/C battery matchers.

I will be ordering lipos from my battery matcher very soon so I hope that every sale helps him out.
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Old 01-16-2008, 01:15 PM   #114
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This is all great news! Do my 4800 Orions have a chance to be legal? I read that "it must have a lead coming from it" and someone posted about it having cell in parallel as well as in series, making it non-complient. I get lost in interpretting the rules. I need help please....
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8.3.2.2.1 Li-Poly battery packs must have a hard, protective case that surrounds the cell(s) in the racing application. The maximum case size shall be as follows:
Length: 139mm +0mm/-3mm
Width: 47mm +0mm/-2mm
Height: 25.1mm +0mm/-3.0mm
The battery pack shall have leads extending from the case for the positive and negative electrical connections using wire of adequate size to handle discharge rates acceptable to racing applications. Alternatively, the case shall have external connection points for these wires clearly marked positive and negative so the user can apply the lead wires. Markings on the case are required stating the rated voltage and capacity of the battery. The Value Added Manufacturers name and/or logo shall be easily readable on the case. Individual cells used in the construction of the battery shall be rated at 3.7 VDC and the pack shall be 2 cells in series.
After reading the rule above in bold, I'm still confused. Can I use my current set-up (Orion LiPo connected directly to the speedo with 4mm bullet connectors) or would I have to use a plug of some kind if I want to attend a regional or national ROAR race?

P.S. Thanks to ROAR for legalizing LiPo. Maybe I'll finally fork over the cash and become a member.
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Old 01-16-2008, 01:25 PM   #115
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i wish they tested it with nimhs too!
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Old 01-16-2008, 01:25 PM   #116
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The bold section is just a fancy way of saying that the Orion style set-up is also ok as long as it's clearly marked.
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Old 01-16-2008, 01:41 PM   #117
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Do we really need 8.4v? What was wrong with the original 7.2v? Sounds like a good way to help slow the cars down which the majority seem to think we need to do anyway. I think keeping tighter control and specs on what batteries are allowed is a great way to make things a little more safe again.
Its all about chemistry. It's 7.4v because of the science, not because of anything else.
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Old 01-16-2008, 01:56 PM   #118
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The bold section is just a fancy way of saying that the Orion style set-up is also ok as long as it's clearly marked.
Thanks
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Old 01-16-2008, 01:59 PM   #119
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Individual cells used in the construction of the battery shall be rated at 3.7 VDC and the pack shall be 2 cells in series.

I know it was asked already, maybe just missed. So, a pack like the Orion 4800, that's a 2S2P configuration (2 cells in series, derived from two pairs of cells in parallel): While it's been noted the pack shall be 2 cells in series, it leaves it open to debate.

Would a pack in a 2S2P configuration be considered legal (assuming it passes all noted tests)?
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Old 01-16-2008, 02:11 PM   #120
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I haven't been a ROAR member for a long time, but I really like the direction they are heading. Next BL motors.

chuck #5563
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