288LikesTamiya mini cooper
09-05-2017, 07:37 PM
Yes, the car still squats under acceleration. However, anti-squat, which is an arrangement of the suspension that uses the forces from the tire patch being pushed forward by the motor when accelerating, is useless on the rear end of a front-wheel-drive car, since there is no force pushing the tire patch forward.
09-05-2017, 07:51 PM
Yes, the car still squats under acceleration. However, anti-squat, which is an arrangement of the suspension that uses the forces from the tire patch being pushed forward by the motor when accelerating, is useless on the rear end of a front-wheel-drive car, since there is no force pushing the tire patch forward.
09-05-2017, 07:51 PM
Dive and squat indicate the degree to which the front dives under braking and the rear squats under acceleration.
Anti-dive and anti-squat refer to a method to lessen the amount of dive or squat, or the amount that dive or squat is lessened, during braking and acceleration. (This could also be accomplished by an active suspension.)
Keep in mind that the weight transfer due to acceleration forces in any direction, longitudinally or laterally, occur on any car that has a center-of-gravity which is above ground level, regardless of any suspension system (and even with no suspension whatsoever).
Last edited by howardcano; 09-05-2017 at 08:04 PM.
09-05-2017, 07:56 PM
Whether or not the adjustment is useless in this situation is debatable (it arguably improves the ability for the suspension to handle bumps as some of the force of impact pushes horizontally as well as vertically), but I'm still wondering what you'd call the adjustment if you had to give it a name.
Similar angles are used on the front suspension of rear-wheel-drive offroad RC cars, and they can be very useful. In that case it is referred to as "kick-up". In this case, if the wheel were driven, we could call it "pro-dive", since braking would push the wheel backwards and upwards relative to the chassis.
09-05-2017, 08:05 PM
The suspension is VERY useful in all cases. Anti-squat is useless for reducing squat on an undriven wheel. The arrangement may have other positive benefits.
Similar angles are used on the front suspension of rear-wheel-drive offroad RC cars, and they can be very useful. In that case it is referred to as "kick-up". In this case, if the wheel were driven, we could call it "pro-dive", since braking would push the wheel backwards and upwards relative to the chassis.
Similar angles are used on the front suspension of rear-wheel-drive offroad RC cars, and they can be very useful. In that case it is referred to as "kick-up". In this case, if the wheel were driven, we could call it "pro-dive", since braking would push the wheel backwards and upwards relative to the chassis.
09-05-2017, 08:08 PM
RC Suspension Tuning Guide ? Kickup
Here's a page that actually does call it "pro-dive". And they got the arrangement backwards!:
Tamiya Suspension Mount Ultimate setting Guide and charts | The RC Racer
Last edited by howardcano; 09-05-2017 at 08:18 PM.
09-05-2017, 08:18 PM
"Kick-up" would be appropriate. There likely are other names in use, though I don't know of anything other than "kick-up".
RC Suspension Tuning Guide ? Kickup
RC Suspension Tuning Guide ? Kickup
The same guide says this about anti-squat
RC Suspension Tuning Guide ? Anti Squat/
They refer to it as the angle of the rear hinge pins.
I can see why you'd object to it being used to prevent squat on this car, but the term anti-squat is commonly used to describe the angle of the rear hinge pins.
09-05-2017, 08:25 PM
I've only ever seen kickup used to refer to the front hinge pins, and that link you posted also only refers to the front hinge pins.
The same guide says this about anti-squat
RC Suspension Tuning Guide ? Anti Squat/
They refer to it as the angle of the rear hinge pins.
I can see why you'd object to it being used to prevent squat on this car, but the term anti-squat is commonly used to describe the angle of the rear hinge pins.
The same guide says this about anti-squat
RC Suspension Tuning Guide ? Anti Squat/
They refer to it as the angle of the rear hinge pins.
I can see why you'd object to it being used to prevent squat on this car, but the term anti-squat is commonly used to describe the angle of the rear hinge pins.
I've never heard the term before, but since we are talking about Tamiya Minis, if Tamiya wants to call it "skid angle", then that's what I'll do.
Last edited by howardcano; 09-05-2017 at 08:37 PM.
09-05-2017, 09:00 PM
). When sosidge suggested it meant anti-squat, everyone seemed (to me) to know that it meant hinge pin angles.Tamiya uses "interesting" terms all the time. For example, they claim part 54765 gives 5 degrees caster, when it's really giving 5 degrees of kickup (also resulting in 5 degrees caster since the C hubs are 0 degrees). If they eventually give us new C hubs with varying degrees, which wouldn't surprise me since we're already getting rear skid angle adjustments, then their 5 degree caster description of that part will no longer be accurate. We're not even sure why they bothered quoting the angle since they've never quoted it on the plastic parts and older cars before. Another term that has annoyed many people is their shock "preload adjustment" for adjusting ride height. You don't actually want your springs preloaded.
09-05-2017, 10:41 PM
I'm just gonna stick with stiffer springs and a (anti) sway bar on the back. Approximates the same net effect of preventing rearward weight transfer and easier rotation.
09-06-2017, 04:46 AM
Sure, but when I hear skid angle, I think of drifting rather than hinge pin angles. The fact that we're having this conversation about what they're actually referring to suggests that skid angle isn't a commonly known term (even if it may technically be more accurate that anti squat in this case ). When sosidge suggested it meant anti-squat, everyone seemed (to me) to know that it meant hinge pin angles.
Tamiya uses "interesting" terms all the time. For example, they claim part 54765 gives 5 degrees caster, when it's really giving 5 degrees of kickup (also resulting in 5 degrees caster since the C hubs are 0 degrees). If they eventually give us new C hubs with varying degrees, which wouldn't surprise me since we're already getting rear skid angle adjustments, then their 5 degree caster description of that part will no longer be accurate. We're not even sure why they bothered quoting the angle since they've never quoted it on the plastic parts and older cars before. Another term that has annoyed many people is their shock "preload adjustment" for adjusting ride height. You don't actually want your springs preloaded.
). When sosidge suggested it meant anti-squat, everyone seemed (to me) to know that it meant hinge pin angles.Tamiya uses "interesting" terms all the time. For example, they claim part 54765 gives 5 degrees caster, when it's really giving 5 degrees of kickup (also resulting in 5 degrees caster since the C hubs are 0 degrees). If they eventually give us new C hubs with varying degrees, which wouldn't surprise me since we're already getting rear skid angle adjustments, then their 5 degree caster description of that part will no longer be accurate. We're not even sure why they bothered quoting the angle since they've never quoted it on the plastic parts and older cars before. Another term that has annoyed many people is their shock "preload adjustment" for adjusting ride height. You don't actually want your springs preloaded.
09-06-2017, 04:47 AM
Careful, there! I know what you are saying, but stiffer springs won't reduce the weight transfer; they only reduce the squat.
09-06-2017, 07:05 AM
Tech Fanatic
I've got both the 05 R and the 07. The 07 feels much nicer to drive, but it's not translating into better laptimes yet. I'm still a bit quicker with my 05. I'm sure the 07 has more to give, it's still at pure box stock setup. I've had to add an oil gear diff to the 05 to get it competitive though (not sure if that's legal where you race), so value wise I'd go for the 07. The 05 also handled like crap out of the box, it took some time to break in (with no setup changes).
If 210mm bodies are your thing, get the 05 R. You can always get an 07 down the line (they're not that expensive) if they do eventually start to pull ahead of the competition, and transfer some of the nice parts over from the 05 (such as the alloy shock bodies).
If 210mm bodies are your thing, get the 05 R. You can always get an 07 down the line (they're not that expensive) if they do eventually start to pull ahead of the competition, and transfer some of the nice parts over from the 05 (such as the alloy shock bodies).
09-06-2017, 10:39 AM
Well, as mentioned, net effect. I'm going with FWD drag racing theory - Get rid of rear squat to keep the front planted. Awesome in a straight line!
09-06-2017, 11:54 AM
I was just reading in the TamiyaClub forum that a photo of an M07 S (210mm wheelbase) has been leaked.
