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Tamiya mini cooper

Old 09-05-2017, 07:37 PM
  #29581  
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Originally Posted by gigaplex
The rear still squats under acceleration in a FWD car as weight transfers to the rear. It's also confusing if you change the terms of the suspension angles just because of the driveline type. What would you call it instead in a FWD car?
Yes, the car still squats under acceleration. However, anti-squat, which is an arrangement of the suspension that uses the forces from the tire patch being pushed forward by the motor when accelerating, is useless on the rear end of a front-wheel-drive car, since there is no force pushing the tire patch forward.
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Old 09-05-2017, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by howardcano
Yes, the car still squats under acceleration. However, anti-squat, which is an arrangement of the suspension that uses the forces from the tire patch being pushed forward by the motor when accelerating, is useless on the rear end of a front-wheel-drive car, since there is no force pushing the tire patch forward.
Whether or not the adjustment is useless in this situation is debatable (it arguably improves the ability for the suspension to handle bumps as some of the force of impact pushes horizontally as well as vertically), but I'm still wondering what you'd call the adjustment if you had to give it a name.
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Old 09-05-2017, 07:51 PM
  #29583  
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Originally Posted by Scargoes
From wikipedia-
Anti-dive and anti-squat are percentages that indicate the degree to which the front dives under braking and the rear squats under acceleration.
This definition is incorrect. The correct terms are "dive" and "squat". "Anti-dive" and "anti-dive" would be the REDUCTION of dive and squat accomplished by an arrangement of the suspension links. This could be expressed as a percentage. So let's correct the above paragraph:

Dive and squat indicate the degree to which the front dives under braking and the rear squats under acceleration.

Anti-dive and anti-squat refer to a method to lessen the amount of dive or squat, or the amount that dive or squat is lessened, during braking and acceleration. (This could also be accomplished by an active suspension.)

Keep in mind that the weight transfer due to acceleration forces in any direction, longitudinally or laterally, occur on any car that has a center-of-gravity which is above ground level, regardless of any suspension system (and even with no suspension whatsoever).

Last edited by howardcano; 09-05-2017 at 08:04 PM.
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Old 09-05-2017, 07:56 PM
  #29584  
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Originally Posted by gigaplex
Whether or not the adjustment is useless in this situation is debatable (it arguably improves the ability for the suspension to handle bumps as some of the force of impact pushes horizontally as well as vertically), but I'm still wondering what you'd call the adjustment if you had to give it a name.
The suspension is VERY useful in all cases. Anti-squat is useless for reducing squat on an undriven wheel. The arrangement may have other positive benefits.

Similar angles are used on the front suspension of rear-wheel-drive offroad RC cars, and they can be very useful. In that case it is referred to as "kick-up". In this case, if the wheel were driven, we could call it "pro-dive", since braking would push the wheel backwards and upwards relative to the chassis.
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Old 09-05-2017, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by howardcano
The suspension is VERY useful in all cases. Anti-squat is useless for reducing squat on an undriven wheel. The arrangement may have other positive benefits.

Similar angles are used on the front suspension of rear-wheel-drive offroad RC cars, and they can be very useful. In that case it is referred to as "kick-up". In this case, if the wheel were driven, we could call it "pro-dive", since braking would push the wheel backwards and upwards relative to the chassis.
You still haven't answered my question of what name you want us to use in place of anti squat to refer to the rear hinge pins having a non-horizontal angle for this car.
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Old 09-05-2017, 08:08 PM
  #29586  
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Originally Posted by gigaplex
You still haven't answered my question of what name you want us to use in place of anti squat to refer to the rear hinge pins having a non-horizontal angle for this car.
"Kick-up" would be appropriate. There likely are other names in use, though I don't know of anything other than "kick-up".

RC Suspension Tuning Guide ? Kickup

Here's a page that actually does call it "pro-dive". And they got the arrangement backwards!:
Tamiya Suspension Mount Ultimate setting Guide and charts | The RC Racer
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Last edited by howardcano; 09-05-2017 at 08:18 PM.
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Old 09-05-2017, 08:18 PM
  #29587  
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Originally Posted by howardcano
"Kick-up" would be appropriate. There likely are other names in use, though I don't know of anything other than "kick-up".

RC Suspension Tuning Guide ? Kickup
I've only ever seen kickup used to refer to the front hinge pins, and that link you posted also only refers to the front hinge pins.

The same guide says this about anti-squat

RC Suspension Tuning Guide ? Anti Squat/

They refer to it as the angle of the rear hinge pins.

I can see why you'd object to it being used to prevent squat on this car, but the term anti-squat is commonly used to describe the angle of the rear hinge pins.
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Old 09-05-2017, 08:25 PM
  #29588  
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Originally Posted by gigaplex
I've only ever seen kickup used to refer to the front hinge pins, and that link you posted also only refers to the front hinge pins.

The same guide says this about anti-squat

RC Suspension Tuning Guide ? Anti Squat/

They refer to it as the angle of the rear hinge pins.

I can see why you'd object to it being used to prevent squat on this car, but the term anti-squat is commonly used to describe the angle of the rear hinge pins.
If anti-squat isn't accomplished, I wouldn't use the term "anti-squat". Maybe that's the reason why Tamiya calls it "skid angle", as indicated in monkey's post that started this discussion.

I've never heard the term before, but since we are talking about Tamiya Minis, if Tamiya wants to call it "skid angle", then that's what I'll do.
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Last edited by howardcano; 09-05-2017 at 08:37 PM.
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Old 09-05-2017, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by howardcano
If "anti-squat" isn't accomplished, I wouldn't use the term anti-squat. Maybe that's the reason why Tamiya calls it "skid angle", as indicated in monkey's post that started this discussion.
Sure, but when I hear skid angle, I think of drifting rather than hinge pin angles. The fact that we're having this conversation about what they're actually referring to suggests that skid angle isn't a commonly known term (even if it may technically be more accurate that anti squat in this case ). When sosidge suggested it meant anti-squat, everyone seemed (to me) to know that it meant hinge pin angles.

Tamiya uses "interesting" terms all the time. For example, they claim part 54765 gives 5 degrees caster, when it's really giving 5 degrees of kickup (also resulting in 5 degrees caster since the C hubs are 0 degrees). If they eventually give us new C hubs with varying degrees, which wouldn't surprise me since we're already getting rear skid angle adjustments, then their 5 degree caster description of that part will no longer be accurate. We're not even sure why they bothered quoting the angle since they've never quoted it on the plastic parts and older cars before. Another term that has annoyed many people is their shock "preload adjustment" for adjusting ride height. You don't actually want your springs preloaded.
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Old 09-05-2017, 10:41 PM
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I'm just gonna stick with stiffer springs and a (anti) sway bar on the back. Approximates the same net effect of preventing rearward weight transfer and easier rotation.
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Old 09-06-2017, 04:46 AM
  #29591  
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Originally Posted by gigaplex
Sure, but when I hear skid angle, I think of drifting rather than hinge pin angles. The fact that we're having this conversation about what they're actually referring to suggests that skid angle isn't a commonly known term (even if it may technically be more accurate that anti squat in this case ). When sosidge suggested it meant anti-squat, everyone seemed (to me) to know that it meant hinge pin angles.

Tamiya uses "interesting" terms all the time. For example, they claim part 54765 gives 5 degrees caster, when it's really giving 5 degrees of kickup (also resulting in 5 degrees caster since the C hubs are 0 degrees). If they eventually give us new C hubs with varying degrees, which wouldn't surprise me since we're already getting rear skid angle adjustments, then their 5 degree caster description of that part will no longer be accurate. We're not even sure why they bothered quoting the angle since they've never quoted it on the plastic parts and older cars before. Another term that has annoyed many people is their shock "preload adjustment" for adjusting ride height. You don't actually want your springs preloaded.
These are all good points. And it is possible that I am the only one who didn't relate "anti-squat" to the pin angle rather than the function! But I don't mind being the exception.
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Old 09-06-2017, 04:47 AM
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Originally Posted by monkeyracing
I'm just gonna stick with stiffer springs and a (anti) sway bar on the back. Approximates the same net effect of preventing rearward weight transfer and easier rotation.
Careful, there! I know what you are saying, but stiffer springs won't reduce the weight transfer; they only reduce the squat.
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Old 09-06-2017, 07:05 AM
  #29593  
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Originally Posted by gigaplex
I've got both the 05 R and the 07. The 07 feels much nicer to drive, but it's not translating into better laptimes yet. I'm still a bit quicker with my 05. I'm sure the 07 has more to give, it's still at pure box stock setup. I've had to add an oil gear diff to the 05 to get it competitive though (not sure if that's legal where you race), so value wise I'd go for the 07. The 05 also handled like crap out of the box, it took some time to break in (with no setup changes).

If 210mm bodies are your thing, get the 05 R. You can always get an 07 down the line (they're not that expensive) if they do eventually start to pull ahead of the competition, and transfer some of the nice parts over from the 05 (such as the alloy shock bodies).
Thanks for the info. One thing I find odd is that what I've found about hopped-up M-05s prior to M-07 people seem to usually say it was great to drive, so it feels strange that now suddenly many seem to say it isn't. I guess I just always get a bit sceptical about supposed big improvements. I suppose I'm not likely to ever be good enough at onroad racing to fight for podiums anyway, my reflexes and coordination aren't what they used to be and what I've seen of people driving these things... man. In that sense the R may well be overkill, but damn does it look nice with that all-black look
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Old 09-06-2017, 10:39 AM
  #29594  
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Originally Posted by howardcano
Careful, there! I know what you are saying, but stiffer springs won't reduce the weight transfer; they only reduce the squat.
Well, as mentioned, net effect. I'm going with FWD drag racing theory - Get rid of rear squat to keep the front planted. Awesome in a straight line!
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Old 09-06-2017, 11:54 AM
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I was just reading in the TamiyaClub forum that a photo of an M07 S (210mm wheelbase) has been leaked.
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