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Old 01-09-2013, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by monkeyracing View Post
Anyway, about TCS vs. everybody else: I've been rather too vocal in the past regarding my feelings towards TCS rules. I'd always believed them to be a little too protectionist, but I'm beginning to see the light. In fact, following hours of discussion with many other racers and organizers, I can see the value in running a "bone stock" mini series, with absolutely no alloy bits, CVDs, gumball tires or any hop-up beyond dampers and bearings. However, as one of my compatriots put it "the horse is out of the barn." I'd still like to try it, but just try to find a mini these days that doesn't have some kind of bling on it. Of course, this would also re-open the silver can/red dot debate and none of us want that.

Jim
Jimbo its been tried and proven a few times at the Karz track. Its easy to do it yourself too. Put all your stock plastic back on it, leave the shocks, put S grips all round (the tire that wins nightly at Karz), ensure the setup is the same (weight balance etc) and be surprised when you do the same lap times and same race time. People spend alot of wasted time trying to prove that you NEED the bling. Its pure BS.

The alloy upgrades allows the bling guys to run also. Hell im one of the worst for that lol. Im well aware it makes absolutely no difference to my final result (other that durability) yet i just love to upgrade it But to force the racers to buy Tamiya only is short sighted when not involved in the TCS IMHO. Oh and dont be confused that TCS rules means stock minis
Any Tamiya Hop-Up Option and spare part is allowed and legal as long as it is used in the way it was designed, and installed on the vehicle it was designed for.

Tamiya have a business plan pure and simple with the TCS. Its their series so of course you can only run their upgrades. Ive never had an issue with it when running it. Only when a club isnt a part of the TCS series, should you concern yourself, that your missing out on much cheaper options for upgrades and replacement parts. Oh and dont forget availability....

Karz have done an amazing job of catering to both the spec side and the upgrade side of the class. IMHO its the BEST place to race a mini, and the competition level is amazing, no matter what the chassis or upgrade, its the driver everytime. Oh and a little luck!
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Old 01-09-2013, 03:56 PM
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Thanks for the input, guys. My point regarding a "box stock" series is based on conversations I've had with a few people. The idea would be to run the most basic, cheapest possible version of the car. (Which is, incidentally, close to what I'm running now. To make my car fit the "box stock" suggestion, I'd only have to swap in the plastic knuckles and dogbones.) The only downside would be durability. I'm running M03/TL01 uprights that are likely 10 years old by now. I'm using them only because they never break. I certainly don't think they're any better/faster than the plastic.

Getting into the cheapest possible car discussion is a whole other kettle of fish. I love running at Karz, because of our common sense rules. To my mind, there's no reason why someone shouldn't be allowed to run a more affordable upgrade made by another manufacturer, as long as it has it's Tamiya equivalent. It makes the cars a little more tweakable and adds another element of fun to the hobby. The "Tamiya equivalent" rule has sort of fallen by the wayside in a few areas, however. Tamiya doesn't make an oil filled diff or double CVD shafts. We know the oil filled diff is making a difference (ha!) in the M05s and there has even been the suggestion that they're providing an unfair advantage. I don't want to get into that argument, though. No one will win. Ever.

Suffice it to say that I'm not (personally) a fan of the oil filled diff or double CVDs, but as a club administrator, I see what needs to be done to keep people happy.

Now, we need to talk about a few locals who are really terrible drivers, but place consistently in the A mains. They crash every lap. but still manage to TQ somehow. It makes me wish we had the will and the manpower to do some tech inspections. That brings up the hand out motors/tech run at TCS events. This is a brilliant idea, if you've got the people and the time to make it happen. As it sits, all we (that means me) can really do is walk the pits and check for really obvious stuff. We actually considered a handout motor rule, but the whining, even before it was publicly suggested, was deafening.

Anyway. It is what it is.

Jim
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Old 01-09-2013, 04:21 PM
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Jimbo, dont get caught into the BS bud. Ask them to show proof the oil diff is an advantage, show it on the track. Considering its a cheap diff alternative and well made, I like that we allow it. As for the double jointed driveshafts..... well that one is a different issue. Thats one for the ban list IMHO. Its no different to an aftermarket set of arms that adjust the geometry of the suspension from stock. There is an advantage for sure. Less wheel vibration on tight corners, means more consistent traction.

Hand out motors, while a great idea for the massive races, its still a royal PITA for organisers and volunteers. One thing you can be assured of, the complainers and whiners will move onto another area of the car and complain some more

A few other races in our area have proven you can still have a great time racing these minis, alongside the complainers. Just go to the race with the intent to race a silly little "mini" rc car, and your set
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Old 01-09-2013, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by bertrandsv87 View Post
I seem to have rctech stalkers that butt in all my conversations with other RCtech members. Hopefully a moderator will stop the stalking, and make the stalkers post about tamiya mini coopers and not about calling me names !!! Do they even race minis ???
I don't think anyone is stalking you. You just post questionable advice and get very defensive/offensive when someone disagrees...and you do it all over rctech.

Granpa, regarding traction rolling, I very much like the idea of fixing it without CA. I have some things to try (shock/spring/sway bar tweaks) that will be first, but was wondering about tires. Spec tire out our local track is Sweep, and we can run 25's, 33's or 40's. I am running 40's all around on my M05 (high traction carpet, club level, not national level high grip) and the thing turns like a monster (almost 12th scale twitchy). Even backing off to full rear tire additive and none on the front, once the fronts warm up, it wants to roll. Is some of this just a factor in using slicks that I need to work around? I am not sure I want to run staggered compounds front to rear, but with the spring suggestions (I run hard front, soft rear like in TC currently which seems to possibly be backwards), I am not sure what tires and which side of the car to start with.

Someone posted that just changing springs is not enough, but the common setup advice is always to change one thing at a time. My experience is TC and pan car, so this mini is all new to me. I am not worried about top speed, and have little inclination to go crazy wrenching on it (it is a stress reliever class), I just want to make it a little less rolly polly.

I currently have the stiff front sway bar on it, blue front, red rear springs, 35wt AE oil, stock camber and toe, ride height is lower arms level, spec R oil filled gear diff with 100k in it (TC's ruined me for ball diffs). Slowing down steering speed and travel has helped some, stiffening the front has really had little to no effect (originally no swaybar and yellow front springs). I know I am falling into the TC setup trap of stiffening the front, which is why I am asking and my lack of mini knowledge.

Thanks!
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Old 01-09-2013, 05:22 PM
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Correction: The current 05 C hubs are different in that they have steering travel limiters molded in. I've never directly seen an issue with the older version, but it was an issue for a friend last weekend. My bad!

AJ, oil diffs cheap? Not as cheap as my shimmed gear diff, pal!
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Old 01-09-2013, 07:15 PM
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Is there a big difference in performance running the double cvd's as oposed to the single tamiya's ?
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Old 01-09-2013, 08:53 PM
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We have found the DCJ's less reliable than the normal cvd's. They usually fail in finals or qualifying at big events. This maybe due to the torque generated by the HW 13T system we are using in combination with tight oil gear diffs.

Due to others having this type of issue I have never fitted them to my mini's. However each to there own. I have found using the tamiya universals the best and I do not use the pin and grub screw to retain. I use a shorter pin and alloy cover made by TOP . This retans the pin and prevents the pin from moving and jamming in the knuckle. Certainly not TCS legal although I believe Tamiya may have them as a hop up.
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Old 01-09-2013, 08:59 PM
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Do you have any part numbers or links for those, Cal? Even when I thread lock them, the grub screws back out.
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by orcadigital View Post
I don't think anyone is stalking you. You just post questionable advice and get very defensive/offensive when someone disagrees...and you do it all over rctech.

Granpa, regarding traction rolling, I very much like the idea of fixing it without CA. I have some things to try (shock/spring/sway bar tweaks) that will be first, but was wondering about tires. Spec tire out our local track is Sweep, and we can run 25's, 33's or 40's. I am running 40's all around on my M05 (high traction carpet, club level, not national level high grip) and the thing turns like a monster (almost 12th scale twitchy). Even backing off to full rear tire additive and none on the front, once the fronts warm up, it wants to roll. Is some of this just a factor in using slicks that I need to work around? I am not sure I want to run staggered compounds front to rear, but with the spring suggestions (I run hard front, soft rear like in TC currently which seems to possibly be backwards), I am not sure what tires and which side of the car to start with.

Someone posted that just changing springs is not enough, but the common setup advice is always to change one thing at a time. My experience is TC and pan car, so this mini is all new to me. I am not worried about top speed, and have little inclination to go crazy wrenching on it (it is a stress reliever class), I just want to make it a little less rolly polly.

I currently have the stiff front sway bar on it, blue front, red rear springs, 35wt AE oil, stock camber and toe, ride height is lower arms level, spec R oil filled gear diff with 100k in it (TC's ruined me for ball diffs). Slowing down steering speed and travel has helped some, stiffening the front has really had little to no effect (originally no swaybar and yellow front springs). I know I am falling into the TC setup trap of stiffening the front, which is why I am asking and my lack of mini knowledge.

Thanks!
Just some random comments on your post, which are merely that and not criticisms. Sweep premounts are a very nice tire. 40 fronts and 33 rears or 33s all around work pretty well under most track conditions. The adage of only changing one thing at a time is only true if your car is only true if your car is close to the right set up and you're looking to improve it.

These are just opinions only and may be off the mark at your track. Two of the major causes of traction rolling involve the tires. The first is a tire that is too grippy for the track. The second is that the sidewall on the tire is too soft and the tire rolls under and trips the car. Short of building a new set of tires with different inserts, the easiest way to cure this is with cyano. With the Sweep premounts, you almost always have to cyano the sidewalls up to and even slightly over on to the contact surface of the tire. They use a medium, 4.5mm insert, which will allow the tire to tuck under.

Contrary to popular belief, traction roll is not caused by by the car lean into a corner. Except in extreme conditions, this is not the case. I'll bet that when you put the front sway bar on it and the stiff blue springs, the car flipped so fast you couldn't even blink. When you drive your real car, the one you drive to the track, these things occur when you drive around a corner. Entering the corner, your car will lean, then take a set, then rip thru the corner. What happens with stiff front set up and roll bars is that it takes a set too quick and too harsh and over your car goes. So, you should go to a softer spring and shock combo and maybe lose the front roll bar. This will slow down the front end action and ease some of the traction roll. How soft a spring, what shock oil, don't know, but if you understand what's happening you'll be able to figure it out. Typically tho, I usually start with 40 wt Losi oil and the yellow springs from the #53333 Spring set. Usually the other types of Mini springs are way too stiff.

The rear of the car is a little different. I like to use a little stiffer set up in back to let the rotate a little quicker. You will hardly ever see a car roll on corner exit which would be caused by the rear of the car. This post is getting a little long so won't get into all the whys and wherefores. Generally you can get by with one step stiffer on the rear springs and a light roll bar.

Hope this was helpful and good luck. Mini racing is a blast as long as you're not traction rolling.
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:33 PM
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Jim ,

TOP part No. PO-DT1007TI. The TI at the end refers to the colour of the covers. They also come in red. There are 4 in a packet with pins.

They work a treat. I currently have the titanium ones on my car.
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Old 01-09-2013, 11:22 PM
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Granpa,

your posts are never long enough, because you donīt talk about unnecessary things but arguments to explain your thoughts!
This post was a whole "how to" setup a mini and gave me the start setting for my M03 rebuild!

By the way, I received my new chassis parts (50792), and I was a little wondering: The grey was slightly darker than the original one, so I had to use for the look also the new rear halves.
Second thing: The new chassis is noticeably heavier than the old ones, so I put the rear halves on the scale for a comparison:
Old, light grey rear halves: 33gr.
new, dark grey rear halves: 42gr.

Front chassis section i could not compare, as I already scrapped it, but it should be even more difference.
So, not the parts to build a ultra-lightweight M03!
If you look at the effort some guys are trying to reduce weight on some items, using the old light chassis is rather simple...
Anyway, the new version feels slightly stiffer, so I guess itīs a durability fix from Tamiya...

BR,
Matthias
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Old 01-10-2013, 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by bertrandsv87 View Post
By the way, any videos of your minis Racing ??????
Yes

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eF3Lq-uLot0

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qRXjodXY7os

Our old track 1st vid was a club race A final , 2nd was M auto race with about 40 minis

Good old times ;-D
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Old 01-10-2013, 06:34 AM
  #18088  
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Originally Posted by Granpa View Post
Just some random comments on your post, which are merely that and not criticisms. Sweep premounts are a very nice tire. 40 fronts and 33 rears or 33s all around work pretty well under most track conditions. The adage of only changing one thing at a time is only true if your car is only true if your car is close to the right set up and you're looking to improve it.

These are just opinions only and may be off the mark at your track. Two of the major causes of traction rolling involve the tires. The first is a tire that is too grippy for the track. The second is that the sidewall on the tire is too soft and the tire rolls under and trips the car. Short of building a new set of tires with different inserts, the easiest way to cure this is with cyano. With the Sweep premounts, you almost always have to cyano the sidewalls up to and even slightly over on to the contact surface of the tire. They use a medium, 4.5mm insert, which will allow the tire to tuck under.

Contrary to popular belief, traction roll is not caused by by the car lean into a corner. Except in extreme conditions, this is not the case. I'll bet that when you put the front sway bar on it and the stiff blue springs, the car flipped so fast you couldn't even blink. When you drive your real car, the one you drive to the track, these things occur when you drive around a corner. Entering the corner, your car will lean, then take a set, then rip thru the corner. What happens with stiff front set up and roll bars is that it takes a set too quick and too harsh and over your car goes. So, you should go to a softer spring and shock combo and maybe lose the front roll bar. This will slow down the front end action and ease some of the traction roll. How soft a spring, what shock oil, don't know, but if you understand what's happening you'll be able to figure it out. Typically tho, I usually start with 40 wt Losi oil and the yellow springs from the #53333 Spring set. Usually the other types of Mini springs are way too stiff.

The rear of the car is a little different. I like to use a little stiffer set up in back to let the rotate a little quicker. You will hardly ever see a car roll on corner exit which would be caused by the rear of the car. This post is getting a little long so won't get into all the whys and wherefores. Generally you can get by with one step stiffer on the rear springs and a light roll bar.

Hope this was helpful and good luck. Mini racing is a blast as long as you're not traction rolling.
Granpa,

The post is not too long, and you won't offend me in the slightest. I am asking for help because I know I got it wrong.

From what I have seen, the M06's seem to have much less in the way of traction roll issues, even with the softer 33's, so gut feeling says that the tire isn't too sticky, or at least that there is a work around that might not include CA (that is really the last option I want to try). I could be wrong as we are comparing apples and oranges too though. There are also some M03's that traction roll everywhere and others that do not...some running the 33's.

Oddly on my 1:1 car, I run much stiffer rear springs then front, but never equated the same as my RC cars all run the other way. My 1:1 car also is rear engine/rwd though and did not seem to be a fair comparison.

I see a lot of people discussing putting in ~35g of weight in the front bumper. This would seem to be to get more front traction (over the drive wheels). Knowing that I have more then enough steering, even under power (there is an on power push, but it is fairly minor), my gut would say weight would be better spent in the rear. Would weight if mounted low enough have any positive effect on traction rolling that might help? Front or rear?

Thanks!
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Old 01-10-2013, 07:53 AM
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Wondering if anyone can comment on the gluing of inserts. I did a search on this thread and found some people say it is not needed. I believe it was also touched on several pages back but can't seem to find it.

Tamiya has different inserts and lots of tires can anybody put them in some sort of order soft to firm. I am trying to stay Tamiya in case I have a chance to do a TCS race. The best descriptions I can seem to find is " to obtain different driving and steering response ". I suppose I can start buying and try them out for myself, might take a while though.

Tires

Tamiya (#50568) M-Chassis Radial Tires http://www.rcmart.com/tamiya-50568-m...?cPath=35_1386

Tamiya (#50683) M-Chassis 60D Radial Tires http://www.rcmart.com/tamiya-50683-m...?cPath=35_1386

Tamiya (#50684) M-Chassis 60D M-Grip Radial Tires http://www.rcmart.com/tamiya-50684-m...?cPath=35_1386

Tamiya (#53215) M-Chassis Slicks http://www.rcmart.com/tamiya-53215-m...?cPath=35_1386

Tamiya (#53222) M-Chassis Super Slicks http://www.rcmart.com/tamiya-53222-m...?cPath=35_1386

Tamiya (#53340) 60D Reinforced Tires TYPE-A http://www.rcmart.com/tamiya-53340-r...?cPath=35_1386

Tamiya (#54216) 60D Reinforced Tires Type B http://www.rcmart.com/tamiya-54216-r...?cPath=35_1386

Tamiya (#53254) M-CHS.60D Super Grip Radial Tires http://www.rcmart.com/tamiya-53254-m...tml?cPath=35_1

Inserts

Tamiya (#50686) M-Chassis 60D Inner Sponge Set http://www.rcmart.com/tamiya-50686-m...h=595_744_1389

Tamiya (#53204) M-Chassis Inner Sponge http://www.rcmart.com/tamiya-53204-m...h=595_744_1389

Tamiya (#53255) M-Chassis 60D inner sponge hard http://www.rcmart.com/tamiya-53255-m...h=595_744_1389
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:17 AM
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Thanx to those who were complimentary, but I do have a tendency to ramble on. Rather than quoting anyone I'll just answer some of the questions. Again, these are just my opinions and might not be correct for the conditions at your track.

If you plan on doing the TCS races, the information requested on Tamiya tires is unnecessary. The TCS series uses a Spec tire. Actually a couple, but I haven't looked at the rules in detail for this year yet.

Inserts, except for the molded ones, should all be glued. Unfortunately, some of the #1016 have the inserts separate and the tire develop soft spots. Contact cement works best. Never use cyano cause it creates hard lumps, which is worse than having soft spots created by separated inserts.

You add weight to the front of the car primarily to get better turn in. It's value in maintaining traction, especially during acceleration is questionable. Weight is added to the rear, however, to maintain traction on corner entry. Adding weight is really for adjusting the cars behavior on corner entry and I don't see it's value for other reasons.

Never have weighed the chassis, but if the dark grey ones are heavier, that may be a good thing. You have to add weight to the rear of the car, if you want to have good steering into a corner. Usually, a Mini that has the front end right will need 28 to 56g of weight in the tail. Other things you can do to maintain a good front end on your set up is to drop the rear end lower, slow the servo down in the Tx, change the steering curve, carry a touch of throttle into the corner. Stiff springs in the front will kill aggressive steering which may be what you need at your track, but I like as much steering as I can get and try to work on the back of the car to control it.

As soon as I see an M06, I tend to walk as quickly as possible in the opposite direction. I bought one like all my compadres, but had the good sense to never build it. After having it for some time, I first tried to sell it for $75, then $50, then I tried to give it away with no takers. Finally, out of pity, someone took it for free to do me a favor. And yes, I know at certain carpet tracks, it may be quick, but it's just not not for me. I never cared for Phylis Diller either.
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