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Old 01-10-2008, 02:58 PM   #106
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Note our uk temp's in the winter though... Cold, to say the least!
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Old 01-10-2008, 03:07 PM   #107
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Rubber tire may be doing well because the racers that would really push the competition level and thus the cost and complexity level are mostly doing foam. Maybe the situation was reversed when rubber tire racing was THE class, seeing most of the average club racers turning to foam before rubber petered out because the big guns weren't running it.
I'm sorry...did you not see the Novak Rubber tire results. If Dr. Hohnstein is not pushing the competition level then I don't know who can. :P
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Old 01-10-2008, 03:09 PM   #108
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[QUOTE=darnold;4060076] [/COLOR] [COLOR=. You do not run into the situation with foams where changing from a 15 run set of foams that started out at 60mm and ran down to 58 or 59mm is going to make you go noticeably faster like changing from a set of 15 run rubber tires to a new set will do.


15 runs on a set of tc foams that will NEVER happen...............15 runs on rubber happens all the time
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Old 01-10-2008, 03:20 PM   #109
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Why all the tire debates? If you like rubber tire carpet RUN THAT! If you like Foam tire RUN THAT! All the races have pretty much gone that route except a few.

This hobby is getting more and more of a pissing contest than any thing..Brushless vs Brushed Lipo vs Nimh now foam vs rubber.

No wonder tracks can't stay open and there are few new ppl that actually stick with it!

They have no clue what to buy!
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Old 01-10-2008, 03:27 PM   #110
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This hobby is getting more and more of a pissing contest than any thing..Brushless vs Brushed Lipo vs Nimh now foam vs rubber.
Maybe the hobby is starting to correct itself. It needs it, on-road has been in decline for a while it seems.
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Old 01-10-2008, 03:33 PM   #111
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Maybe the hobby is starting to correct itself. It needs it, on-road has been in decline for a while it seems.
Maybe who knows but the direction its going is not the "SAVE ALL" some WANT IT TO BE!!
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Old 01-10-2008, 03:47 PM   #112
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Europe (rubber tire racers) has equal or more stringent tracion compound rules (odor. composition) than we do.

Rubber tire racing can be was easily policed as foam tire racing.
Can you elaborate on how they check composition ?
Do they check at the race ?
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Old 01-10-2008, 03:48 PM   #113
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Last edited by jag88; 01-10-2008 at 04:00 PM. Reason: double post
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Old 01-10-2008, 04:03 PM   #114
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Maybe who knows but the direction its going is not the "SAVE ALL" some WANT IT TO BE!!
The first thing we need is a little cooperation, communication and a good understanding of what really effects performance. All the motor manufacturers were invited to participate in the ROAR brushless motor committee. None offered much in terms of technical input and so we ended up with a partial specification for the Novak as a set of proposed rules. Most of the current motors being sold do not meet these rules due to magnet diameter and I suspect wire size and number of strands. This includes all the brands buying from ‘the supplier’. No one has made any effort to keep things fair or equal. It is more of a get to market quick and deal with it later… at the expense of you all.

Truth be known we are still waiting for the ROAR rules to be decided to make sure we are not almost legal. They have done a fabulous job of keeping us out of the market with the delays. Everyone else just threw motors out and really put a kink in the whole try to make them equal goal. It is going to be interesting to watch it play out.

We are just trying to do what is best for everyone long term. We are certainly not going to accomplish fairness by trying to control the most complicated part of the system. Control the motor designs and let them limit the speed of the class.

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Old 01-10-2008, 04:07 PM   #115
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If my rotors go over 200 degrees, they're done. Once that happens, I have to change the gearing to make up for the reduced magnetic strength, and they continue to run hotter. Not so much slower, though. But what happens in the clubs and at the big races is entirely different. Did the guys you were keeping up with see the same thing? Was Brad changing rotors?

The reason I ask about the Zubak meter is because I'm curious if there's actually a change in numbers. If I measured my used rotor against someone else's used rotor, would I see a big difference? I'm not disagreeing with you, or discounting your experience, I'm just wondering why some people saw it and others didn't. Or, at least, they're not talking about it.
I think Brad ran the same rotor all weekend. He also had the correct rollout and was monitoring temps AFAIK, so I doubt he ever got the motor too hot.

My other buddy was also well aware of what needed to be done, and was not abusing the motors. Who knows why he had trouble, or felt he did.

I can't say for sure I never got my motor over 200*, but I had never thermalled it previously. I know it did get faster, when I replaced the rotor, as well as a third friend of mine when he replaced his motor.
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Old 01-10-2008, 05:00 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by syndr0me View Post
If my rotors go over 200 degrees, they're done. Once that happens, I have to change the gearing to make up for the reduced magnetic strength, and they continue to run hotter. Not so much slower, though. But what happens in the clubs and at the big races is entirely different. Did the guys you were keeping up with see the same thing? Was Brad changing rotors?

The reason I ask about the Zubak meter is because I'm curious if there's actually a change in numbers. If I measured my used rotor against someone else's used rotor, would I see a big difference? I'm not disagreeing with you, or discounting your experience, I'm just wondering why some people saw it and others didn't. Or, at least, they're not talking about it.
Yes the Zubak's meter DOES work. I checked my rotor this past weekend at the BRL race and asked the guy who owned it what was good before he checked mine. He said "I wont run anything under 1200 and the best ones are in the 1300 range". When he checked mine it was 1009. I was laughed at But it was still good enough to qual 5th and finish 3rd. Who know's what I could have done with a "good" rotor!

Moral of the story is there is a big difference in the rotors. And just to clarify the motor was bought at the Oval masters in November and was only run at the Oval masters (10.5) and then at the BRL this past weekend (10.5). It probably has 15-20 runs on it MAX in an oval car.

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Old 01-10-2008, 06:34 PM   #117
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Yes the Zubak's meter DOES work. I checked my rotor this past weekend at the BRL race and asked the guy who owned it what was good before he checked mine. He said "I wont run anything under 1200 and the best ones are in the 1300 range". When he checked mine it was 1009. I was laughed at But it was still good enough to qual 5th and finish 3rd. Who know's what I could have done with a "good" rotor!

Moral of the story is there is a big difference in the rotors. And just to clarify the motor was bought at the Oval masters in November and was only run at the Oval masters (10.5) and then at the BRL this past weekend (10.5). It probably has 15-20 runs on it MAX in an oval car.

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What I can't decide about on the rotors is, does a "weaker" rotor mean less power, or just that you have to gear the motor differently for its particular power band? In theory, the 13mm rotor would produce more magnetic strength, yet people are saying it's slower in the 13.5's. And Jim himself said the Feigao motors seemed better as the rotors weakened. It sounds like at Novak, a lot of people were gearing based on what the fast guys were running for a rollout, when maybe they should have focused on gearing their motor where it wanted to be.

Is this a case where a weaker rotor produces more RPM and less torque, and you just have to gear it accordingly?
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Old 01-10-2008, 06:59 PM   #118
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Syndrome...magnetic strength vs. magnetic friction, you have a pm.
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Old 01-10-2008, 06:59 PM   #119
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syndrome i think your heading in the right direction. I was helping a guy who was slow in the first day of practice ... everytime he ran practice i waiting for him to hit the 5 minute mark and had him pull off 1 or 2 laps after and we got an accurate temp on his motor. He had started gearing at what some others were and he was way cold. so he kept going up till he got to temp. And in 10.5 he was the opposite. Hot with the same gearing as other guys so he ended up down a tooth or two from where most had set there gear.
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Old 01-10-2008, 07:07 PM   #120
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The gearing does vary a lot with motors/rotors... I ran 10.5 at a BRL event (oval) and though I'd be slick and put a new rotor in that I won in the event raffle... Needless to say the gearing was way off and I lost a lap off my pace in the last qualifier and the main... At the Novak, Blackstock and I came off in the mains with very similar temps and straight a way speed but I was geared about 3-4 teeth lower than he was... You have to run a motor and learn it and not base your gearing off the next guy... Start way safe and gear up from there......
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