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Old 01-10-2008, 01:47 PM   #91
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I disagree. With asphalt you do get more rubber wear than on carpet, but on carpet I have found that the insert breaks down faster. My experience is that the life of the tire is about the same.
I guess it depends on what you consider the life of the tire. Ive always gotten a lot more life out of my rubber tires then my foam. Of course it depends on the rubber tire and insert but there are definately some combo's out there that will far exceed the life of a foam tire. Though I guess if you ran some hard foam tires you could say the same but you risk chunking.
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Old 01-10-2008, 01:48 PM   #92
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This turned into a tire discussion, but the original thought needs addressing.

One run tires

One weekend batteries

One crash bodies

Expensive car development

Professional drivers

Motors with multiple important design parameters that determine the power output.

Yet the perception is that the speedo determines who stands on the podium? Cool! But not likely true.

It is the motors that need to be built equal, not the speed controllers. The lower speed classes have always been limited by the motor burning up. There has to be a limit to push against to have fair racing. Get the most performance you can by any means available from the motors. That has always been the game and the only reasonable place to try and control things.

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Old 01-10-2008, 01:52 PM   #93
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This turned into a tire discussion, but the original thought needs addressing.

One run tires

One weekend batteries

One crash bodies

Expensive car development

Professional drivers

Motors with multiple important design parameters that determine the power output.

Yet the perception is that the speedo determines who stands on the podium? Cool! But not likely true.

It is the motors that need to be built equal, not the speed controllers. The lower speed classes have always been limited by the motor burning up. There has to be a limit to push against to have fair racing. Get the most performance you can by any means available from the motors. That has always been the game and the only reasonable place to try and control things.

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Yes, lot of things that need to be addressed in RC. I dont mind any of the things you listed above existing in the top level of racing. Its just sad that there isnt a class you can race in now that those things arent a part of. As a result unless you make well into a 6-figure salary you are shut out of the hobby (if you expect to compete).
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Old 01-10-2008, 02:09 PM   #94
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One thing everybody who wants to run rubber tires has forgot about and that is the chemicals that always show up to get the most traction out of new/used tires. Competitive rubber tire racing leads to trick chemicals and elaborate treatment procedures that would make your hair curl..... or fall out !
Police THAT !
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Old 01-10-2008, 02:09 PM   #95
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Damn, that totally ruins my argument. :-) Congrats on making the show. Sorry to hear you had to use so many rotors, I hope that isn't a trend. Did anybody have a Zubak meter at the race?
i didn't make the a but I noticed the same thing leading up to the race. As guys started practicing, they would have new motors and be much faster down the straight than me, same rollout. Then when i got a new rotor, a lot of the speed came back.
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Old 01-10-2008, 02:17 PM   #96
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If foam tires are "optimum" at certain diameters, how is that any different in the end than the limited grip cycles of rubber?

It's pretty much a given that to get the most from foams, you have to mow them down to, what, 57mm? Sure, you can run them bigger and lose a little time, but that's not much different than running on older rubbers in the end, is it?

One thing that concerns me, though, is the quality of the handout rubber tires. There's been a number of comments made about the shortcomings of the tires used at Novak. The quickest way to kill interest in a class on the rise is with defective tires, don't you think? Hopefully the issues discovered at that race will be addressed.

The optimization doesn't come from grip but lack there of. In other words foams have TOO much grip and cutting them down is a way of taking some of the grip out of them. They do not loose grip per se from repeated use, thus making the car slower, like a rubber tire does. Instead they loose some grip when they become noticeably smaller which helps the car to work better in "high bite" conditions. This is why the "one run tire" theme is now popping up at the big races.

Getting less than the "most" from foams (grip wise) isn't the issue as foams are more consistent with their grip characteristics than rubber tires. You do not run into the situation with foams where changing from a 15 run set of foams that started out at 60mm and ran down to 58 or 59mm is going to make you go noticeably faster like changing from a set of 15 run rubber tires to a new set will do.

It seems that the cycle in RC is for people to migrate towards anything that is more simplistic, low in cost and fun. The problem seems to be that the very nature of racing is competition and the moment someone can gain an advantage, even on the club racing level, then others are "forced" to follow.

Rubber tire may be doing well because the racers that would really push the competition level and thus the cost and complexity level are mostly doing foam. Maybe the situation was reversed when rubber tire racing was THE class, seeing most of the average club racers turning to foam before rubber petered out because the big guns weren't running it.

That is why I think that the problem isn't about the "form" of racing (ie. Foam vs. Rubber, BL vs. BR, or NiMH vs. Lipo) as much as it is the "format" that is used and what type/level of competition that it leads to...

Please forgive me Dieter for hijacking the thread, I officially bow out and return this set to its original station... there is nothing wrong with your set, do not attempt to adjust your channel....

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Old 01-10-2008, 02:23 PM   #97
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I guess it depends on what you consider the life of the tire. Ive always gotten a lot more life out of my rubber tires then my foam. Of course it depends on the rubber tire and insert but there are definately some combo's out there that will far exceed the life of a foam tire. Though I guess if you ran some hard foam tires you could say the same but you risk chunking.
Not talking anything crazy, just regular premounts. Been using Sorex 28's on carpet as they are the spec'd tire for the local series. Typically ran 32's on asphalt. Same track, there is just carpet over the asphalt currently.


Sorry about the detour, now back to the regularly scheduled program...
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Old 01-10-2008, 02:24 PM   #98
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One thing everybody who wants to run rubber tires has forgot about and that is the chemicals that always show up to get the most traction out of new/used tires. Competitive rubber tire racing leads to trick chemicals and elaborate treatment procedures that would make your hair curl..... or fall out !
Police THAT !
Europe (rubber tire racers) has equal or more stringent tracion compound rules (odor. composition) than we do.

Rubber tire racing can be was easily policed as foam tire racing.
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Old 01-10-2008, 02:26 PM   #99
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i didn't make the a but I noticed the same thing leading up to the race. As guys started practicing, they would have new motors and be much faster down the straight than me, same rollout. Then when i got a new rotor, a lot of the speed came back.
If my rotors go over 200 degrees, they're done. Once that happens, I have to change the gearing to make up for the reduced magnetic strength, and they continue to run hotter. Not so much slower, though. But what happens in the clubs and at the big races is entirely different. Did the guys you were keeping up with see the same thing? Was Brad changing rotors?

The reason I ask about the Zubak meter is because I'm curious if there's actually a change in numbers. If I measured my used rotor against someone else's used rotor, would I see a big difference? I'm not disagreeing with you, or discounting your experience, I'm just wondering why some people saw it and others didn't. Or, at least, they're not talking about it.
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Old 01-10-2008, 02:26 PM   #100
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Not talking anything crazy, just regular premounts. Been using Sorex 28's on carpet as they are the spec'd tire for the local series. Typically ran 32's on asphalt. Same track, there is just carpet over the asphalt currently.


Sorry about the detour, now back to the regularly scheduled program...
All you needed to say was Sorex. That explains it all. Those tires are garbage in my opinion. They are the least durable tire in the world unless you have a perfect setup. A set of Take-Off CS tires will last you an entire season on carpet
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Old 01-10-2008, 02:29 PM   #101
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All you needed to say was Sorex. That explains it all. Those tires are garbage in my opinion. They are the least durable tire in the world unless you have a perfect setup. A set of Take-Off CS tires will last you an entire season on carpet

The cs22 can go off at 4 minutes, but I havnt tried the other compounds.
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Old 01-10-2008, 02:36 PM   #102
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The cs22 can go off at 4 minutes, but I havnt tried the other compounds.
Yeah, either format (rubber or foam) if you go too soft you wont get a very long life. Ive ran 4 weeks worth of asphalt racing on CS-27s. Not too bad Sure, they fall off after the first 5 runs but after that the dont fall off nearly as quick. I set my car up for 5 run tires and not 1 run tires
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Old 01-10-2008, 02:44 PM   #103
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Yeah, either format (rubber or foam) if you go too soft you wont get a very long life. Ive ran 4 weeks worth of asphalt racing on CS-27s. Not too bad Sure, they fall off after the first 5 runs but after that the dont fall off nearly as quick. I set my car up for 5 run tires and not 1 run tires
The 28's I have found are optimal at about the 4 to 8 run mark and start to tail off after that. Gluing the sidewalls from the start helped to extend the usefull life but leads to other issues. There just seems to be no sidewall durability with the Sorex's.
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Old 01-10-2008, 02:51 PM   #104
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The 28's I have found are optimal at about the 4 to 8 run mark and start to tail off after that. Gluing the sidewalls from the start helped to extend the usefull life but leads to other issues. There just seems to be no sidewall durability with the Sorex's.
Ive only ran them on asphalt. I cant even make it to 4 runs before they blister so bad you cant use them. With the 32's Ive worn through the rubber in 3 runs before. Im sure a lot of it was my setup but man thats a lot of tires to go through to even get to the right setup.

Sorry didnt mean to hijack the thread.
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Old 01-10-2008, 02:55 PM   #105
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Yeah, either format (rubber or foam) if you go too soft you wont get a very long life. Ive ran 4 weeks worth of asphalt racing on CS-27s. Not too bad Sure, they fall off after the first 5 runs but after that the dont fall off nearly as quick. I set my car up for 5 run tires and not 1 run tires
I did most of an indoor series on one set of cs22s, as they were the control tyre. Then used them outside some more and they were still OK for club racing as you dont grain them indoors.

it was only an example, I have got on well with sorex 28 outside, track temperature also plays a key part in how long any tyre will last.
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