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Old 01-10-2008, 09:40 AM   #76
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A.....Depending on driver and tire size. 37/104 up to 38 with a 100 which was a bit high. Forgot the difference in the T2 for clearance vs. the 08. I didnt hear any major complaints except jugging spurs.
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Old 01-10-2008, 09:50 AM   #77
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One thing that I like is to get rid of rocket rounds, this format promotes madness in all of us. Everyone knows that they only need to finish one good run and will keep gearing higher to the point of melt down in hopes that one of the runs will be completed....
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Old 01-10-2008, 10:25 AM   #78
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Go to all rubber or have handout foam tires. Handout foams can be handled exactly the way rubber is. Get a set with the entry and are able to purchase "x" number of additional sets. Change it up to. Hand out all purples at this race and then double pink at another. If you chunk a tire that is tough luck and is the same for everyone. On the other hand rubber takes the big power out of the picture and is more about driving and chassis set up as opposed to who has the best battery, assortment of one run tires, one run rotors, etc... Mute point with rubber.

The problem would be any one company getting the monopoly on all of the races. Jaco seems to have it locked up right now with their new "Rubberz". Maybe Jaco, BSR, and Parma could sit down and come to some sort of an agreement or conclusion on how to make it work. They are the big players in the electric/carpet scene.
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Old 01-10-2008, 10:47 AM   #79
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Good idea Rob.....Hand out foams would be ideal. The only way I can see to keep the foam tire manufacturer guys happy and the tracks happy is to go to a hand out foam to be sold at the race...this way the track has more sales and the manufacturer isnt just throwing money in the trash bin. But you will need to have each company support a class and that class is their class for the event to have tires for so they can all be happy. So lets say Jaco sponsors the Mod Sedan class they would need to supply tires for that class at a discounted price for the LHS and the racers to buy.....Now Parma would/could sponsor the Stock Sedan class....then BSR could sponsor the 19t class....and these same companies would support the corresponding 12th scale class. This way the companies donít need to send a box full of free tires to a race they are sending a box of tires to be sold to the racers and they will make money and not just be giving up free stuff and no one is buying any foam tires. This way everyone in a given class is all on the same tires from the same batch and everything is fair and square.....no hand built tires or exotic compounds.

Or just go back to Rubber tires.... and be done.....no foam only kits cut down on cost there.....tires last longer now then they did in the past....motors esc and everything electronic will likely last longer.
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Old 01-10-2008, 10:48 AM   #80
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Two classes...

Stock Rubber: spec brushless motors
Modified Rubber: open to anything



Simple. Racing is expensive, period. Too many classes is a bigger problem than the manufacturing of foam tires or pushing the limits of brushless technology.

Limit many of the problematic factors, and we'd all be better off... including the tracks struggling to survive.
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Old 01-10-2008, 11:42 AM   #81
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Interesting discussion regarding foam and rubber racing for TC. A question that comes to mind is: "Are there any rubber tires which under the increased speeds of today will be no faster or easier to drive on runs 1-5 than they will be on runs 6-10 or 11-15? It seems to me that TC has gone through this before. Rubber tires have an optimum grip cycle and the more the speed, the more important the grip and thus the optimum grip cycle of the tire comes into play. This means fewer competitive runs. For foams the optimum grip cycle isn't the issue but the size is because they generate too much grip (in the current compounds normally used) thereby making the car difficult to setup and keep from traction rolling. Yes the insert battle has been won for rubber tires, and certain hardness ratings have been normalized (27's, 32's, etc.) but the inherent problem of optimum performance is still there.

So for foams the problem shows up due to the increased bite that they generate and with rubber tires it shows up due to the decreased bite (compared to foams) that they generate.

Maybe the problem is more than one issue and is revealing itself in multiple areas (ie. Motors, ESC's, Batteries, Tires, etc.). Maybe the question is "how do we create a level playing field, at an affordable cost for the average citizen, while keeping the cars at a sane enough speed so that people can actually set them up and have fun driving them?".

To this end I agree with others that a one compound race, but of any manufacturers tires (such as T.M., Parma, Jaco, BSR, RC4 Less, etc.), should be used, and the same for Rubber tires.

For foams we could institute a harder compound such as purples all around , to be checked using a durometer. A rather tight spec of 44-52 could be utilized along with a minimum tire diameter such as 58mm so that racers will use fewer tires and leave with more of their investment. The harder compound will limit some of the traction that foams make, decrease wear and increase durability. We could do the same for Rubber tires but maybe we could make it so that each set of tires must be used at least once before qualifying begins (as marked by tech or the race official in a post tech setup).

For both Rubber and Foam TC you could set a limit and mark the total amount of sets to be used. Maybe for Rubber it would be 2 sets and for Foam it would be 4 sets of tires, regardless of class or motor, identifying each set with its own unique id. If a driver chunks a foam tire or breaks a Rubber rim only that tire can be replaced. The replacement tire would be checked and passed by the race officials and marked for that set.
Just some thoughts...
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Old 01-10-2008, 11:49 AM   #82
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Sorry Jim.... pay me back how ever you want for this side track.
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Old 01-10-2008, 12:06 PM   #83
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Tires are always going to be an issue. They are the largest factor in the handling of your car even before springs and shocks come into play. This is true for every form of racing from R/C & go-karts all the way through to NASCAR and F1.

The arguement against rubber tires use to be that foams didn't give up and you could run them the same speed throughout their life. This sounds as if it is becoming less and less true. Yes, rubber tires do change as they get used and in most cases give up some grip throughout their life. It would be next to impossible to get away form that... just the nature of rubber. However, its been my experience in some cases losing some grip in the tires is not always a bad thing, especially when the grip of the track gets high (Novak race). I don't know how many times I've been faster on older rubber tires than brand new ones. Yes a overhaul of the setup may correct the issue, but just sometimes the older tires work a little better.

In my opinion, rubber tires are easier to race throughout a race weekend AND provide better racing. I don't have to monitor the size of the tires to keep up with rollout or ride height, which to me is as much of a PIA as hunching over a comm lathe all weekend. They don't chunk, and rarely have I cracked a wheel (usually takes an extremely hard hit, at least in my experience). I don't know about anyone else, but I almost cry when I chunk a foam tire... well maybe not, but it does suck. About the only maintenance for a rubber tire is keeping track of the gluing on the wheels. Rubber tires also (in most cases anyway) have reduced corner speed compared to foams which, again in MY OPINION, is a great way to slow the speeds of the cars down.

Aside from better tires, the best way to control the foam tire issue in a larger race (the issue being everyone running zillions of sets of tires throughout the weekend) is to mark/brand the tires and only allow 2 - 3 sets for racing, and to me thats probably too many. IMO, if you can't get through a race weekend (I don't mean practice) in less than 2 or 3 sets then something is wrong in either your chosen class or the tire.

Just my 2 cents
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Old 01-10-2008, 12:16 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin K View Post
Sorry Jim.... pay me back how ever you want for this side track.
Actually Kevin, I personally don't see it as that much of a sidetrack as much as it is an extension. The original post was to bring up a potential issue with speed controls for brushless (I guess???). The thread turned into a "how do we police the technology of brushless", and instead, we seem to care more about policing other areas of the racing. I think this is showing that brushless is currently making most racers happy and that other areas (tires) need attention first, and then maybe any issues with brushless may take care of itself.

Or then again, maybe it is a sidetrack in which case I appologize too
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Old 01-10-2008, 12:21 PM   #85
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If foam tires are "optimum" at certain diameters, how is that any different in the end than the limited grip cycles of rubber? It's pretty much a given that to get the most from foams, you have to mow them down to, what, 57mm? Sure, you can run them bigger and lose a little time, but that's not much different than running on older rubbers in the end, is it? But I may be biased, after three years of foam, I've started racing rubber and it's brought so much joy back into racing for me. And, dare I say, the driving seems more technical.

One thing that concerns me, though, is the quality of the handout rubber tires. There's been a number of comments made about the shortcomings of the tires used at Novak. The quickest way to kill interest in a class on the rise is with defective tires, don't you think? Hopefully the issues discovered at that race will be addressed.
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Old 01-10-2008, 12:26 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by syndr0me View Post
If foam tires are "optimum" at certain diameters, how is that any different in the end than the limited grip cycles of rubber? It's pretty much a given that to get the most from foams, you have to mow them down to, what, 57mm? Sure, you can run them bigger and lose a little time, but that's not much different than running on older rubbers in the end, is it? But I may be biased, after three years of foam, I've started racing rubber and it's brought so much joy back into racing for me. And, dare I say, the driving seems more technical.

One thing that concerns me, though, is the quality of the handout rubber tires. There's been a number of comments made about the shortcomings of the tires used at Novak. The quickest way to kill interest in a class on the rise is with defective tires, don't you think? Hopefully the issues discovered at that race will be addressed.
Wow, glad to see you have finally come around on rubber tires . I always had a lot of respects for your post but never got why you were so pro-foam, now I think we agree on just about everything. Ha ha...

I second all the talk on moving towards rubber tires.

Last edited by or8ital; 01-10-2008 at 12:52 PM.
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Old 01-10-2008, 12:43 PM   #87
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Rubber tires last a LOT longer running carpet than they do on asphalt. There are optimum grip levels with the rubber tires, but so is foam (56mm one run foam tire). Rubber can still be run and are still able to be used after the race is over at the club level.
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Old 01-10-2008, 01:09 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ApexSpeed View Post
Two classes...

Stock Rubber: spec brushless motors
Modified Rubber: open to anything



Simple. Racing is expensive, period. Too many classes is a bigger problem than the manufacturing of foam tires or pushing the limits of brushless technology.

Limit many of the problematic factors, and we'd all be better off... including the tracks struggling to survive.
Problem is, lots of guys like to run foam and their cars are built/set up for it. Foam on carpet is fun; like driving on velcro. People want fun and that isn't going to change. Reality is often different than theory.
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Old 01-10-2008, 01:26 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by or8ital View Post
Wow, glad to see you have finally come around on rubber tires . I always had a lot of respects for your post but never got why you were so pro-foam, now I think we agree on just about everything. Ha ha...

I second all the talk on moving towards rubber tires.
Now we're really on a tangent. Sorry Jim. :-(

The most respected racer at our track is hardcore foam, and pretty anti-rubber. Most new racers (myself included) are deeply influenced by the fast guys they race with, and often adopt their views. That can be good and bad, as some people don't tend to look outside their box and see if the views they've adopted are what they really feel. I find this unfortunate, because you can find pockets of racers in certain areas that group think, and form their opinions based on the original opinion/bias of a single person.

I started out thinking that rubber tires were for beginners, were slow, never had any traction, and only lasted 2 runs. A lot of people probably still think that way. It took me a while to realize none of those things are true.

Anyway, I'd say the switch to big wheels is what ultimately killed my interest in foams. The tires wore out faster, chunked easier, and pretty much enhanced all the bad things about foam tires. That's what pushed me over the edge. You can call me a newb and roll your eyes, and that's fine, but I'm relatively intelligent person that's been a dedicated on-road racer for 3 years, and that's how it ended for me. I consider myself an above-average consumer with a strong passion for racing, and I was at the point where I didn't want to race anymore. Foams are dead to me. I was a real live racer that paid full price for tires ALL the time, and I'm done with that. Sorry it didn't work out.

On a more personal note, I find rubber tire racing more interesting. It seems like the cars react to setup changes in a more predictable manner. Just about every car can work on rubbers (love my 416!), as opposed to running the same two or three cars on foams. The driving seems to require a lot more finesse, throttle control, and driving technique. Sure, I can't throw the car into turns, but I consider that a good thing. I'm notorious at our track for calling foam tires a "crutch" for bad driving habits, and I still feel that way. Foam can hide a lot of bad technique, and I think that's one of the core reasons people don't like rubber.

Crutch, out!
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Old 01-10-2008, 01:39 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by RBLove View Post
Rubber tires last a LOT longer running carpet than they do on asphalt. There are optimum grip levels with the rubber tires, but so is foam (56mm one run foam tire). Rubber can still be run and are still able to be used after the race is over at the club level.
I disagree. With asphalt you do get more rubber wear than on carpet, but on carpet I have found that the insert breaks down faster. My experience is that the life of the tire is about the same.
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