1LikesU.S. Vintage Trans-Am Racing
01-16-2011, 08:42 PM
The vta rules is what made me quit running the class ,i don't think any one manufacturer should be favored over another in any class and novak is favored in vta and personally i don't care for novak, so i believe if the rules where different and allowed other brands for motors and esc the class would grow. Not everyone likes the rules so you are mistaken.
01-16-2011, 08:44 PM
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So that is your argument for the ban is that we have not provided enough technical detail? Thats not really my argument at all.....its the fact that V208 was banned....for a mistake or a known error....which ever it was...it is. You are still not coming clean about what the mistake was. So if you want to be technical then thats what I want. If you cheated....just say that. You keep dancing around it and it isnt going to change the fact that it was deemed illegal.
We at least agree 208 has caused this problem. It would have come up sooner or later anyway. Point made and we will take the blame. All we can do now is decide what to do because of it. That is the debate, lets give it a try.
Many feel this has guaranteed blinky modes will be equal now and forever. Do you not agree? Forever is a long way away....and when you hook up an ESC to a PC for downloads this door will remain open.
Do you not believe the system worked ? Its hard to say...did you knowingly push the limits to create an advantage? Or was ROAR asleep at the wheel and it trusted you to do the right thing?
Do you not agree the end result was acceptable to everyone? From looking at the devide this has caused its hard to say.
Do you not agree all spec modes and nonboosting esc’s are equal now? Again I dont have all ESC's so I cant say for certain. Like I said previously the door will always be open because of what V208 did. The only way to make sure this cant happen again is to do what Rob did with the USVTA and his list of ESCs
If you answer no then we debate why and the possible solutions including a ban on programable esc’s.
If do agree the system worked and everything is currently fair then what is your next point of concern?
That it will happen again? You cant say it cant happen again because it can when you can load software onto a ESC.
Do you not believe we are motivate to police ourselves? You should be motivated to sell product.....when if there is a "mistake" in the software that leads to more sales...then I guess it was a good mistake. You were not motivated to check for "mistakes" in the first place so you policing yourself doesnt seem likely. As to what other MFGs do they would be foolish not to check theirs against yours....this might be how V208 was found out.
DARKSIDE – Thank you for a reasonable voice.
Exactly! We are on the same side and all want to grow racing. If a ban proves to be the best solution lets do it. I do not think we have even gone thru the process of identifying the problem before we provide the solution.
So we have concerns of equal performance.
What are the ways we can verify performance levels?
Is there any indication the performance levels are not equal currently?
We at least agree 208 has caused this problem. It would have come up sooner or later anyway. Point made and we will take the blame. All we can do now is decide what to do because of it. That is the debate, lets give it a try.
Many feel this has guaranteed blinky modes will be equal now and forever. Do you not agree? Forever is a long way away....and when you hook up an ESC to a PC for downloads this door will remain open.
Do you not believe the system worked ? Its hard to say...did you knowingly push the limits to create an advantage? Or was ROAR asleep at the wheel and it trusted you to do the right thing?
Do you not agree the end result was acceptable to everyone? From looking at the devide this has caused its hard to say.
Do you not agree all spec modes and nonboosting esc’s are equal now? Again I dont have all ESC's so I cant say for certain. Like I said previously the door will always be open because of what V208 did. The only way to make sure this cant happen again is to do what Rob did with the USVTA and his list of ESCs
If you answer no then we debate why and the possible solutions including a ban on programable esc’s.
If do agree the system worked and everything is currently fair then what is your next point of concern?
That it will happen again? You cant say it cant happen again because it can when you can load software onto a ESC.
Do you not believe we are motivate to police ourselves? You should be motivated to sell product.....when if there is a "mistake" in the software that leads to more sales...then I guess it was a good mistake. You were not motivated to check for "mistakes" in the first place so you policing yourself doesnt seem likely. As to what other MFGs do they would be foolish not to check theirs against yours....this might be how V208 was found out.
DARKSIDE – Thank you for a reasonable voice.
Exactly! We are on the same side and all want to grow racing. If a ban proves to be the best solution lets do it. I do not think we have even gone thru the process of identifying the problem before we provide the solution.
So we have concerns of equal performance.
What are the ways we can verify performance levels?
Is there any indication the performance levels are not equal currently?
01-16-2011, 10:24 PM
I am not asking you to Rob and I think I have made that statement a number of times. I respect that it is your decision to make for the USVTA and I have stayed away.
However since you are promoting the idea with roar for all stock racing perhaps you would give us the benefit of your experience so we can decide if it is right for everyone. You are one of the best resources for information to explain the reasons and advantages and ultimately how it increases participation and fairness. Maybe it is the right answer.
Kevin - I will get back with you on a full response, its late. You make some valid points that are worth further discussion, which is why I am here. I do not have all the answers and I am searching just like everyone else. I must say there is going to have to be at least a little trust somewhere or there is no answer.
However since you are promoting the idea with roar for all stock racing perhaps you would give us the benefit of your experience so we can decide if it is right for everyone. You are one of the best resources for information to explain the reasons and advantages and ultimately how it increases participation and fairness. Maybe it is the right answer.
Kevin - I will get back with you on a full response, its late. You make some valid points that are worth further discussion, which is why I am here. I do not have all the answers and I am searching just like everyone else. I must say there is going to have to be at least a little trust somewhere or there is no answer.
01-16-2011, 10:29 PM
Hi there! This is Kent Ball and around here they call me Snoopy. Welcome to VTA. If you are new to VTA or new to RC racing in general. Please turn off your computer immediately and forget you ever found this thread. Instead go to a local track that races according to the USVTA rules. There you will find people who talk face to face and are much less inclined to tear each other apart.
Thank you and Happy racing!
Coincidentally posted after Jims post and not to be considered as a response to such.
Thank you and Happy racing!
Coincidentally posted after Jims post and not to be considered as a response to such.
01-16-2011, 11:09 PM
To be quite honest, I'm not sure ROAR is doing the right thing, at least for the proposed 17.5 class. I think their ideas for 21.5 are very good, but could go even further. Realistic, licensed, gt bodies and maybe even treaded tires would be great to dissuade "fast guys" from running the class. Make it so they don't even want to do it. But 17.5 I'm not sure on. It would also appeal to outsiders. This actually plays into part of what my thought process was going into the esc decision and the decisions on motors for this class.
Perception is reality.
I have used the term "green gas tank syndrome" before. If you go to a race, and a guy has a green gas tank on his car and wipes everybody out, next week you'll see a lot of green gas tanks. It has nothing to do with performance, but that is the way it is. I wanted not only to eliminate the chance of problems with spec software, but also to eliminate the feeling you needed "brand x" to win. When the decision was made, months before any spec anything came up, there were guys who couldn't keep themselves from going past the arbitrary limits we came up with to try to equalize things on a temporary basis (i.e. adding more than 10* timing on an esc). The non-programmables eliminated that. Spec modes should as well, but there were reasons beyond that.
If somebody who was a really good racer shows up with the sweet blinking light $175 + speedo and beats everybody down all the time, there's gonna be a lot of those escs at the track. That's not what THIS class, or the proposed 21.5 class, is about. Then there are those guys who are convinced that the basic speedos are not as good, so you HAVE TO HAVE the top of the line stuff. Then they come on these forums to preach the "truth". Either way, this is not part of the philosophy.
The motor deal is similar, in that there is no motor of the week, and Novak already had a trade in system up and running. They were willing to support the amount of trades they might get, and their product line is stable. Add to that they were willing to make 25.5 motors, which use the most material and labor. They had the things we needed.
The escs that were allowed, fit inside our rules "box". Pretty much anything that fits is ok. Does the LRP SPX Zero Esc fit?? To honest I don't know, they don't make it very clear if the other modes it has have timing. Does the Novak Kinetic fit? No SpeedPassion GT 2.1? No Tekin RS? No. The only qualification is non user firmware programmable, no timing. i have even looked into oddball stuff like the Losi ESC, but it has timing...
So things should simpler, and less expensive. That being said, should ROAR ban the programmable speedos for 17.5 spec? I'm not sure. I don't like to see anyone have to get rid of equipment. That was one of the factors in making the changes for the USVTA, and it was because it was able to be done in a somewhat low cost fashion, and because I felt the benefits would be so high, it happened. 17.5 is being touted as a mid level class, where there will be sponsored drivers, and talented, experienced drivers too. They will be spending a lot of money no matter what on every aspect of their program. 100% different from USVTA. Much different from a "sportsman" class.
I did not like what was reported from the IIC, and what I saw locally with v208. This is not beating a dead horse, but just saying it was a bad episode which motivates people to try to eliminate the possibility. ROAR as it turned out, never tested the software. Shame on ROAR, #1. It seems like right now we'll never know exactly what happened on Tekin's end, but there may be some blame there as well... Either way, I'm sure ROAR or an agent they use could look at new software. I just don't know if their motivation for the non-programmables is that they don't want to do all the testing? For a higher end class, if the software can be proven, I can't see it being a big problem. The way it was handled before leaves a bad taste in the mouth, and that's why there is hesitation.
Perception is reality.
I have used the term "green gas tank syndrome" before. If you go to a race, and a guy has a green gas tank on his car and wipes everybody out, next week you'll see a lot of green gas tanks. It has nothing to do with performance, but that is the way it is. I wanted not only to eliminate the chance of problems with spec software, but also to eliminate the feeling you needed "brand x" to win. When the decision was made, months before any spec anything came up, there were guys who couldn't keep themselves from going past the arbitrary limits we came up with to try to equalize things on a temporary basis (i.e. adding more than 10* timing on an esc). The non-programmables eliminated that. Spec modes should as well, but there were reasons beyond that.
If somebody who was a really good racer shows up with the sweet blinking light $175 + speedo and beats everybody down all the time, there's gonna be a lot of those escs at the track. That's not what THIS class, or the proposed 21.5 class, is about. Then there are those guys who are convinced that the basic speedos are not as good, so you HAVE TO HAVE the top of the line stuff. Then they come on these forums to preach the "truth". Either way, this is not part of the philosophy.
The motor deal is similar, in that there is no motor of the week, and Novak already had a trade in system up and running. They were willing to support the amount of trades they might get, and their product line is stable. Add to that they were willing to make 25.5 motors, which use the most material and labor. They had the things we needed.
The escs that were allowed, fit inside our rules "box". Pretty much anything that fits is ok. Does the LRP SPX Zero Esc fit?? To honest I don't know, they don't make it very clear if the other modes it has have timing. Does the Novak Kinetic fit? No SpeedPassion GT 2.1? No Tekin RS? No. The only qualification is non user firmware programmable, no timing. i have even looked into oddball stuff like the Losi ESC, but it has timing...
So things should simpler, and less expensive. That being said, should ROAR ban the programmable speedos for 17.5 spec? I'm not sure. I don't like to see anyone have to get rid of equipment. That was one of the factors in making the changes for the USVTA, and it was because it was able to be done in a somewhat low cost fashion, and because I felt the benefits would be so high, it happened. 17.5 is being touted as a mid level class, where there will be sponsored drivers, and talented, experienced drivers too. They will be spending a lot of money no matter what on every aspect of their program. 100% different from USVTA. Much different from a "sportsman" class.
I did not like what was reported from the IIC, and what I saw locally with v208. This is not beating a dead horse, but just saying it was a bad episode which motivates people to try to eliminate the possibility. ROAR as it turned out, never tested the software. Shame on ROAR, #1. It seems like right now we'll never know exactly what happened on Tekin's end, but there may be some blame there as well... Either way, I'm sure ROAR or an agent they use could look at new software. I just don't know if their motivation for the non-programmables is that they don't want to do all the testing? For a higher end class, if the software can be proven, I can't see it being a big problem. The way it was handled before leaves a bad taste in the mouth, and that's why there is hesitation.
01-16-2011, 11:38 PM
I did not like what was reported from the IIC, and what I saw locally with v208. This is not beating a dead horse, but just saying it was a bad episode which motivates people to try to eliminate the possibility. ROAR as it turned out, never tested the software. Shame on ROAR, #1. It seems like right now we'll never know exactly what happened on Tekin's end, but there may be some blame there as well... Either way, I'm sure ROAR or an agent they use could look at new software. I just don't know if their motivation for the non-programmables is that they don't want to do all the testing? For a higher end class, if the software can be proven, I can't see it being a big problem. The way it was handled before leaves a bad taste in the mouth, and that's why there is hesitation.
The tinky-winky-blinky situation has a very similar parallel in Formula One racing. In F-1 traction control software (and related items like automated diff control, ant-lock braking, etc) weren't legal, then the traction control/launch control and diff control WERE allowed, then banned again. How did this happen? The good folks at F-1, even with a crew of HIGHLY skilled and compensated technicians, figured out that they absolutely could not prove beyond doubt that the teams weren't using this sort of stuff, finding ever more elusive ways of masking such systems, auto-delete codes, etc. So if they couldn't guarantee it wasn't there they decided to allow everybody to use it. This lasted, iir, a couple years, then F-1 mandated a FIA-supplied engine management system (would be like specifying one particular esc) and re-banned the technologies they didn't want in place.
At this point, I'm of the opinion that we can't guarantee "blinky is blinky". Sorry. So I am 105% in favor of ROAR's position re: the "stock" class(es).
That said, I think they may be missing the boat by eliminating the "Super Stock" categories which should have both faster motors AND open esc rules. This could be the training ground for esc manipulation and an intermediate step to "oh my god" mod.
The adjustable timing/boost/turbo/cheat/whatever esc's are just about the worst thing to happen to "grass-roots" racers. We don't have a track where we can put in even a couple days practice to optimize settings, etc. We roll out the carpet, race, and roll it back up. And we aren't terribly different from a lot of clubs. When we were racing brushed motors some skilled tuners could eke out a marginal advantage...I'm not a particularly skilled tuner but I never felt like horsepower was my biggest disadvantage. Brushless, though, the difference is FAR more than "marginal". This was driven home to me VERY clearly by the huge leap in performance when Tekin's v.203 came out during the holidays 2009. I went from racing at the TimeZone GP early that November and being as fast or faster than anyone out of the turns and onto the straight to racing at the Prarie Knights Casino race in early Feb with the same basic setup and being pulled SEVERAL car lengths each time we pulled onto the straight. And the straight is only where it was the most noticeable...every time they accelerated off a turn they were gaining a bit more and a bit more because they could gear lower to keep the torque up.
There is NO doubt in my mind that Tekin has a better mousetrap. I just happen to also believe that the mousetrap they've come up with is not particularly good for racing, as a whole.
01-16-2011, 11:40 PM
Uh...speaking of "straw man"...unless I'm mis-informed you guys aren't running USVTA rules, so why on earth would that have made you quit running VTA? I'll double-check with Mark, but last I'd heard you were still running 21.5 (and open 21.5's at that) and allowing esc's in "blinky".
01-16-2011, 11:51 PM
Uh...speaking of "straw man"...unless I'm mis-informed you guys aren't running USVTA rules, so why on earth would that have made you quit running VTA? I'll double-check with Mark, but last I'd heard you were still running 21.5 (and open 21.5's at that) and allowing esc's in "blinky".
01-17-2011, 12:09 AM
Right.
So there is NOTHING preventing you from continuing to race VTA on a weekly basis at your home track other than hurt feelings that "elsewhere" folks might be racing a different spec? Not a very different situation to other classes. But hey, that's not your point then is it? IMHO that's a pretty weak excuse to quit a class but, obviously, it's your call.
The ACTUAL situation, at least within a fairly large radius of yourselves, is that afaik we're the only ones who changed to the 25.5. If/when I go race VTA with you guys (again) or with the Dakota guys (again) I have to keep a 21.5 handy. Also, and again afaik, all the "regional" programs allow "blinky" too. Just as we did (and v.208 at that) for our big race last spring where a few of your locals participated.
Then again, I don't "plan" to go race elsewhere...I go do it.
And do so realizing that pretty much EVERY class (again, speaking about the greater "region" of racing) has differences from program to program, so to point out (much less quit over the "difference") VTA is a bit harsh. What tires are you running in TC compared with everyone else? What motor are you running in WGT compared to everyone else? Etc.
Straw man.
So there is NOTHING preventing you from continuing to race VTA on a weekly basis at your home track other than hurt feelings that "elsewhere" folks might be racing a different spec? Not a very different situation to other classes. But hey, that's not your point then is it? IMHO that's a pretty weak excuse to quit a class but, obviously, it's your call.
The ACTUAL situation, at least within a fairly large radius of yourselves, is that afaik we're the only ones who changed to the 25.5. If/when I go race VTA with you guys (again) or with the Dakota guys (again) I have to keep a 21.5 handy. Also, and again afaik, all the "regional" programs allow "blinky" too. Just as we did (and v.208 at that) for our big race last spring where a few of your locals participated.
Then again, I don't "plan" to go race elsewhere...I go do it.
And do so realizing that pretty much EVERY class (again, speaking about the greater "region" of racing) has differences from program to program, so to point out (much less quit over the "difference") VTA is a bit harsh. What tires are you running in TC compared with everyone else? What motor are you running in WGT compared to everyone else? Etc.Straw man.
01-17-2011, 05:14 AM
hey Rob - since you posted a 'teaser' about the 2011 USVTA Nats, have you posted a date and a place??
01-17-2011, 06:23 AM
I am applauding Robk's response in post 10161. It was well put and explains the spirit and purpose of the rule. One quick question as I look across multiple post from differrent users. I think there may be times when timing and boost are being interchanged and I do not see them as being the same. As for a VTA spec ESC are we looking for Zero on both? It is now my assumption that we are looking for zero on both.
I just want to say something to anyone who has been racing VTA for less than three years. VTA had a special texture to it when it was first starting. Back when it was 4 cell Nimh and 27t. Door to door racing with a cool look to it, and you didnt have to have the hottest gear to hold the line. You didnt have to have bullet reflexes to keep it on the track either. Much of this unique texture faded away with the onset of technology that arrived shortly after the formation of the Official USVTA. Implementing and adapting to that tech has been painful, to many that love the class, but none more than the guys who lead the way. Doug and Rob did not want to leave VTA behind while everyone else enjoyed brushless and lipo. Thank you guys for trying to always do what is best for the class. I know there are some issues that just wont stay away, but I hope that it stays worth it over all.
Last edited by snoopyrc; 01-17-2011 at 07:08 AM. Reason: I just needed to say more.
01-17-2011, 07:00 AM
I am disappointed that many of you harbor ill feeling to Tekin [&V208] it has repeatedly appologized for many times,
I am losing respect for those that continue that assualt, I am NOT sponsored by nor have ever been sponsored by Tekin or any of its 'affilates'
VTA has a great following, Novak has went out of thier way to promote and support it, for that they [Novak] have my Thanks
I hope to see more positive posts here on this thread,
And as a side note, we ran VTA saturday, [OVRCCC] even thou there were only 5 of us, it was probably the closest racing of the day, every one of us had the lead at one time thru the race, all were on the same lap pace [till 1 broke] really enjoyable
Thankx, Bill
I am losing respect for those that continue that assualt, I am NOT sponsored by nor have ever been sponsored by Tekin or any of its 'affilates'
VTA has a great following, Novak has went out of thier way to promote and support it, for that they [Novak] have my Thanks
I hope to see more positive posts here on this thread,
And as a side note, we ran VTA saturday, [OVRCCC] even thou there were only 5 of us, it was probably the closest racing of the day, every one of us had the lead at one time thru the race, all were on the same lap pace [till 1 broke] really enjoyable
Thankx, Bill
01-17-2011, 07:05 AM
.
Last edited by hairy; 01-17-2011 at 08:01 AM. Reason: should have known better than to ask a simple question
01-17-2011, 07:39 AM
I am sure that this will not go over well but, Would you guys mind indentfiying who you are and what you affilation is,since the conversation has taken such a serious tone?
Scottrik (espically since your signature is so inflamatory)
RobK
KevinK
I don't ask Tekinprez, it is self identifiying
Scottrik (espically since your signature is so inflamatory)
RobK
KevinK
I don't ask Tekinprez, it is self identifiying