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Old 02-21-2012, 10:12 AM   #13726
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Originally Posted by orcadigital View Post
Just FYI, the part number is HPI 4793. The ebay ones are correct, the others are not the regular legal vintage tires, but are what people are using to get by. They are not USVTA legal, but clubs are allowing them until the 4793's become available.

http://www.amainhobbies.com/product_...e-D-Compound-2

First part of march is when stores are expecting to get more in. I am glad I hoarded some back before the first shortage.
Thanks for the correction.
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Old 02-21-2012, 10:25 AM   #13727
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I think it was because you dont have to spend any money to take the ring off. Nor do you have to grind or cut anything. You can still use an aftermarket fan.
Not arguing but drilling, milling, grinding whatever for cooling doesn't cost anything either, just like removing the center ring, but it is no longer allowed. So the cost reasoning is not a valid reason to use IMO.


I also got to say the Novak motor differences is pretty drastic that it cannot be ignored. It is tough giving gearing suggestions to a Newby when I know they may have to spend $40 or more to get the same speeds out of a 25.5 ballistic as an identical setup car. This has already happened as we took 3 TC3 cars and tried to gear them all at 4.0 FDR, like often suggested, with new 25.5 Novak motors. After many gear changes and lots of dollars spent one is geared 4.1, the second is 3.65 and the third is at a 3.33 FDR and now they are finally the same speed on the track. We even used the same battery in all three cars just to be consistent in testing. This kind of motor discrepancy can be costly and discouraging to guys trying to put cars together for the VTA class.

Thankfully there is no longer an FDR gearing limit or 2 of the 3 guys would have to buy new motors until they found one that worked within the gearing limits due to manufacturing variences. Yes competition in VTA is that close (purpose of the class) which is good but significant differences in expensive items liked motors is not. For 2 of the guys involved they paid more for their motors than they did on their $50 TC3's, but have spent more on gearing to make them competitive than anyone would have imagined entering the class....

Food for thought as there are some good discussions here, and thankfully most have been staying civil in them.
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Old 02-21-2012, 10:44 AM   #13728
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You do need to consider that gearing is never one size fits all. A starting place is a starting place. Some guys drive pretty ham fisted, and need to be higher numerically to get the car out of the corner. Some guys roll the car around the track, and don't have a lot of steering throw in their car, and get away with a bigger pinion. I know personally I have been like "Really?" when asking about ratios some guys run. I know it's also motors as well. This goes on in every class. 17.5 motors are just as bad.

As far as what cutting/dremeling costs, I didn't say it was cost. I don't want people cutting on motors in a spec class. Sorry, I just don't think it's appropriate. I want to keep things simple to participate for the most part.

Buy car, get tires and body, get a motor and esc. Race.

That way people don't feel they need to punch holes in their endbell, or buy a different rotor, or whatever.
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Old 02-21-2012, 10:47 AM   #13729
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Using three different TC3s was the wrong approach to that experiment. Bearings and driveline efficiency alone can be drastically different between all three cars.

Take one TC3 and three different motors... that will give you a better idea of motor discrepancies.
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Old 02-21-2012, 10:50 AM   #13730
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Originally Posted by SS LS1 View Post
Not arguing but drilling, milling, grinding whatever for cooling doesn't cost anything either, just like removing the center ring, but it is no longer allowed. So the cost reasoning is not a valid reason to use IMO.
There is a cost associated with any permanent modification to the motor. You might be willing to pay market price for a used motor with a can that was hacked up with a dremel tool but most guys would not. Certain guys have the talent and tools to properly mill a can, but what about those that don't? They would be left to purchase the aftermarket can with pre-milled cooling holes or pay someone to do it for them.
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Old 02-21-2012, 11:03 AM   #13731
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http://www.ihobbycentral.com/hpi-479...ing-tires.html

http://www.activepowersports.com/hpi...pound-hpi4793/

http://www.rchover.com/Vintage-Racin...-p/hpi4793.htm (in stock)

http://www.galaxyhobby.ca/index.php?...=shopping_cart (Canada)

http://www.wholesaletrains.com/Detail.asp?ID=200816173 (in stock)

The above sites show 4793 in stock. rchover and and wholesaletrains have them

At the VTA nationals other classes are run. Which I thinks is a good idea. You want to consider the class below in the future.

http://www.indyrcraceway.com/page15.php
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Old 02-21-2012, 11:32 AM   #13732
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Originally Posted by robk View Post
He beat us like rented mules. Mike Haynes used to do the same thing.
you know you liked it Rob, only better if Geotz did it...
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Old 02-21-2012, 11:33 AM   #13733
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nice talk here...lets see

1st..tires...the demand for USVTA tires fronts and rears, are very high, almost twice from last year...this is a very fast growing class that is in high demand from HPI and Novak...Ive talked to HPI and they are more coming...it was a simple mix up in which vintage tire the USVTA uses...that simple..but we are on the right track..several hobbyshops have gotten orders in and are recieving them...I express the VTA hotspots in GA,TN,FL,IL,IN,VA, and SC...and was told to that they are up and running to get these tires and bodies out ASAP...

2nd..motors...if you need to dyno a batch of motors, you are nuts...Ive got 2 25.5's...one SS and a Ballastic...one is geared and fast at 4.0 fdr with full time, the other 3.6 FDR at dead center......Ive also test about 5 different motors...all have a sweet spot...some are 30 deg..some 45 deg...some at 3.5 fdr, others 3.0 fdr...its called setup...its just as important to find that sweet spot as to set camber and droop...

example...for Snowbirds...I ran 3.7-4.0 FDR all weekwith 35 deg time on the motor...temp was 80-100 deg...added more time and the car got slower and hotter...150ish....changed the FDR to 3.5 and put the time back to 35 deg, and car got a 10th faster...but temp still went to 120ish...while others cars where all over the board running 3.2 fdr and full time at 180 degs?...and everything in between...

take the time to make sure your car drivetrain is free and start with the factory time on the motor...4.0 fdr...and start with gearing...but watch your temp...my car runs great at 100 deg...

also...my motor runs cooler and better with the ring on...

3rd...bodies...really...Ive won with every HPI body out there and been beating by every body as well...all have pros and cons...pick what you like and run it...Dave ran a HPI Boss Stang, I ran the Camaro...he won...guess I need a Mustang...lol..nope got one..
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Old 02-21-2012, 02:36 PM   #13734
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We had a better turn out. I broke in the main, so here's a good qualifier:

+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.
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Old 02-21-2012, 04:20 PM   #13735
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Originally Posted by robk View Post
Seriously, dyno all the motors you want. Dave Johnson (or anyone else with a ton of talent) will continue to crush everybody. This is not oval racing.

There are guys around this neck of the woods who have driving talent and properly set up cars who issue beat downs with motors that are probably fused into their cars at this point. The point is the slower the class, the more the chassis comes into play. When we first started doing this, a bunch of guys who raced the silver can sedan classes at the Tamiya races began to dominate because their cars were so much better. Once the rest of us caught on, the racing really got good. We never went to the dyno. Their cars were never "way faster in a straight line". They just worked.
I am not in any way trying to start an arguement here. I have seen how a good motor is as well as a bad. Be it from the factory, gearing, etc. Someone with a lot of raw talent and a decent or better car will do very well of course. That doesn't mean I will never upgrade my car, upgrade my equipment, practice more, or try new things to get faster. If I didn't, then what is the point? We could just say he is the better driver, and I don't need to race anymore. There is fun in getting better and faster. Some people do it with practice, others with fancy upgrades, and others with fancy testing equipment. I have run with guys that are "way faster in a straight line", Myron is one of them. He is also an amazing driver, and his car is setup perfect...but his car can straight line smoke my car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robk View Post
As far as bodies, the Camaro is most popular because it is one piece. So is the Pegasus Mustang. They usually last the longest.

That being said, I have won races with the HPI Plymouth, the Pegasus 70 Camaro (baddest looking body!), and the 1/9 (j/k) Pegasus Cuda. One of the fastest guys who used to run up here only ran Parma Cudas. He beat us like rented mules with a shoebox mounted on his car. Mike Haynes used to do the same thing.
I have won races with the Protoform Javelin. I have been beaten by just about every body out there. I was just commenting on Myron's earlier thing about batteries...people will run what the fast guys run, good, bad, or otherwise, as that is the nature of this hobby and most racing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKSIDE View Post
nice talk here...lets see

2nd..motors...if you need to dyno a batch of motors, you are nuts...Ive got 2 25.5's...one SS and a Ballastic...one is geared and fast at 4.0 fdr with full time, the other 3.6 FDR at dead center......Ive also test about 5 different motors...all have a sweet spot...some are 30 deg..some 45 deg...some at 3.5 fdr, others 3.0 fdr...its called setup...its just as important to find that sweet spot as to set camber and droop...

example...for Snowbirds...I ran 3.7-4.0 FDR all weekwith 35 deg time on the motor...temp was 80-100 deg...added more time and the car got slower and hotter...150ish....changed the FDR to 3.5 and put the time back to 35 deg, and car got a 10th faster...but temp still went to 120ish...while others cars where all over the board running 3.2 fdr and full time at 180 degs?...and everything in between...

take the time to make sure your car drivetrain is free and start with the factory time on the motor...4.0 fdr...and start with gearing...but watch your temp...my car runs great at 100 deg...

also...my motor runs cooler and better with the ring on...

3rd...bodies...really...Ive won with every HPI body out there and been beating by every body as well...all have pros and cons...pick what you like and run it...Dave ran a HPI Boss Stang, I ran the Camaro...he won...guess I need a Mustang...lol..nope got one..
No, a dyno is not necessary, but you also admittedly tested 5-7 motors (5 plus the 2 you have?). Testing is testing, whether you do it by feel, lap times, or a dyno. I know my driving is not consistent enough that I could test a motor by lap times. You are a much better driver. But the premise is the same. You are min/maxing. Nothing wrong with it, but this aversion to the word dyno is just a word. The process is different, the outcome is the same, you end up with a better performing car. That is why you are as quick as you are, you put the time and effort into perfecting your skills, as well as your equipment. Someone who buys a motor from the LHS, sets it at 4.0, and comes out, is not going to beat you, not would I expect them to. Whether they do it with 5 motors or a dyno, it is the same thing.

Melvin has been helping me understand my motor, timing, and gearing better, and I am changing them all constantly trying to learn how the changes affect the temps, the cars handling, the "feel", and the lap times.

Bodies is the same as everything else, and was just to make a point, that people will want to follow the fast guys. Honestly, I see nothing wrong with that. No one is forcing anyone to do that, but if you want to get faster, you can't just keep doing the same old thing. If I, or anyone, is going to try and get faster, do they try what the fast guy tried, or try what the slow guy tried? I have 2 bodies for my car that I just finished painting, a Boss Mustang and the 1 piece Camaro. I plan on trying them both to see which I like better. As I am not a muscle car fan, I have no preference, and if one is faster at a specific track, I will use it. It is no different from testing several motors and chosing the correct FDR and timing for that track and motor.

None of this is to rile anyone up, and is no way negative to VTA. It is a spec class, and there are inherent consequences with that. People will try things to be faster, some legal, some less legal. I agree, that getting someone to the track is the most important thing for this hobby to survive. Realistically though, taking a 10 year old TC3 with an ebayed 25.5 motor and an old GTB, is not going to win at Snowbirds. It takes an investment in time and money to get faster. I think time is a better expenditure, but you need both to be competitive. I enjoy running with our local club, and seeing 5 people all within a second of each other, with top times all within a few tenths. That is awesome. Going to another track and getting smoked doesn't bother me, but it does make me want to go faster, and help my club do the same.

PS. Myron, I had a blast in Nashville as I have told you. My biggest personal accomplishment of the day was taking a car that handled like poo, and got it running well, and competitive (B-Main competitive) by the time the mains happened. Just because no one there had ever even HEARD of a Sakura Zero...it was still a great time...which is why I will see you at One Lug in a couple weeks.
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Old 02-21-2012, 05:04 PM   #13736
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I differ on the TC3 Snowbirds...and thats because Ive seen it...not at the Birds, but other big events....Ive raced and lost to my share of TC3 and 4's, as well as beat plenty with my TC3....The older chassis are still getting it done...my switch came cause of my wife making it a Vday gift...but after testing, my TC3,5, and 6 do all about the same in VTA...better tuning here or there, but since I run box stock pretty much...it doesnt effect me or my driving...

Now I will say I put alot of time getting ready for Snowbirds as well as practice once I got there....but Dave didnt beat me with some new upgrade, he beat me cause he was smooth under preassure and didnt give me any room to advance... , 0.5-3 sec gap for 8 min btween us...thats the best way I would like to loose a race...

I had nothing extra and he didnt either...thats USVTA...
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Old 02-21-2012, 06:41 PM   #13737
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Wow, these last few discussions remind me WAY too much of the kind of garbage discussions that used to go on in Touring Car. Who tweaked this and who tweaked that and how we can eek out the last bit of performance from this esc or that motor.
What the hell happened to good old VTA ? Whats with this sudden urge to be "team driver" fast ??
Who gives a s*%T !! Just build it, learn to set it up and drive it and go out to the nearest track or parking lot and play with your TOY CAR like an adult !!
Really.....this line of talk is worthless.
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Old 02-21-2012, 06:54 PM   #13738
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Why can I never view the last page on this thread? I have to post this from the first page?
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Old 02-21-2012, 07:14 PM   #13739
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Why can I never view the last page on this thread? I have to post this from the first page?
Just reverse the order of the posts Working good for me
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Old 02-21-2012, 09:43 PM   #13740
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Somebody have a line on tires???? I'm desperate for 4797's and 4793's. I need two sets. Even the 102993 & 994's, which I know are not legal, but need them for practice/parking-lot bashing, are all dried-up. I bought the last set of 26 993's from Stormer ( great guys by the way). The D-compound slicks are around tho....When's the container going to arrive???
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