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Old 01-02-2012, 03:20 PM   #13156
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close enough that I dont have to buy anything to be faster or worry that the guy running brand X motor is winning cause he not running a Novak....and dont think guys didnt go grap a Tekin,LRP, or Black Dimond to try and gain an advantage...didnt work...

I guess that is what confuses me about the rules and what they really accomplish. We have proven over and over again that it does not make any real difference.

It simply reduces the, as Rob likes to say, green gas tank envy and has little to do with actual performance. I suppose that is at least a reason… Just not a great reason.

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Old 01-02-2012, 03:29 PM   #13157
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Wow, I feel like I just got kicked in the nuts. I figured people would be excited that we managed to move closer to USVTA with the motor choice, not promoting boycotting the race because it isn't exactly what they think is best.
We got you AWD, VTA will be a success at the NATs, and the NATs as a whole will be a success. You can only do so much, nothing will be perfect. Not everyone will be 100% happy, but the majority will. It will be a great time. And I predict a big turnout for VTA. The class is too fun to fail.
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Old 01-02-2012, 03:36 PM   #13158
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Wow, I feel like I just got kicked in the nuts. I figured people would be excited that we managed to move closer to USVTA with the motor choice, not promoting boycotting the race because it isn't exactly what they think is best.
Andrew,

Don't let anyone get you down over this. You did a great job of getting the race for Mikes and convincing ROAR to run 25.5 VTA to open it up to USVTA racers so they would not have to get a new motor.

Just about everyone locally (including you and me) are USVTA compliant except for driver figures and I plan on having my driver figure installed by the time of the 2012 ROAR Carpet Nationals. The few locals who have other brand 25.5s do not have an advantage so lets see how it shakes out. I would guess there will be at least 20 to 30 local VTA entries and am sure there will be more from out of town.

This is going to be a Great Race to attend at a World Class Facility. If someone does not want to show up because it is not pure USVTA rules, it is their loss.

DISCLAIMER TIME AGAIN:
Please note that I am NOT an official for the 2012 ROAR Carpet Nationals and do not represent Mikes Hobby Shop or the local ROAR Race Committee in any official capacity, just a local Mikes racer passing along information. If you need any official information on the 2012 ROAR Carpet Nationals, please contact Andrew Doherty or Mike Darnell through the contact information in the 2012 ROAR Carpet Nats thread.
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Old 01-02-2012, 03:54 PM   #13159
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Originally Posted by Tekin Prez View Post
I guess that is what confuses me about the rules and what they really accomplish. We have proven over and over again that it does not make any real difference.

It simply reduces the, as Rob likes to say, green gas tank envy and has little to do with actual performance. I suppose that is at least a reason… Just not a great reason.

Tekin Prez
The real reason is this computer age we live in. I know several hackers who could easily alter Vegas 212 and unless you actually read the code you would never know (I used to do a lot of online gaming and have been a computer hobbyist since the late 80's and still have a lot of friends in the business). It is not just green gas tank envy. If it can be flashed, some enterprising devious soul could alter the program to their own ends which is the reason for the rule. Please note that I am a happy Tekin user and love my RS Pro ESC. Just not for VTA. If you make a truly compliant USVTA legal ESC, I will buy it because I like Tekin products.

Lets please NOT start the ESC arguments again in this thread. We already have about 200 pages of posts on this dead issue. And as always at the local level a track can do whatever they feel they need to do.
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Old 01-02-2012, 03:55 PM   #13160
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Old 01-02-2012, 04:03 PM   #13161
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wow I opened up a can of worms...sorry guys
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Old 01-02-2012, 04:06 PM   #13162
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Originally Posted by Tekin Prez View Post
I guess that is what confuses me about the rules and what they really accomplish. We have proven over and over again that it does not make any real difference.

It simply reduces the, as Rob likes to say, green gas tank envy and has little to do with actual performance. I suppose that is at least a reason… Just not a great reason.

Tekin Prez
Answered your own question didn't you? But more then that, simple rules for a non over complicated class, makes it the fun factor when you don't have to worry about someone else POSSIBLY cheating.

Plus as a track owner I thank Rob for the rules because it makes my life easy. Looking for the tenth advantage is bad enough that Darkside would soak his VTA tires in a plastic bag and traction compound to get an advantage. Whether he does it now is a moot point, it was done to get an advantage. Was it cheating no, was it against the spirit of the class YES, but sooner or later someone takes any class too serious.

Darkside is the only person I know that practices VTA as much as I practice 12th scale. He doesn't change his setup he just runs laps so that he's better at what is I say a fun class. The only time I have ever practice VTA was when I was working on setup and then I have also been know to throw a car in the main just to race and have fun without even qualifying. track owner prerogative.. but it wasn't to win it was to just have fun.

which is the spirit of this class... to have fun!
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Old 01-02-2012, 04:14 PM   #13163
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The US Trans Am thread is being rebuilt -- this is a known issue with very large threads, and it will take a few hours to complete. meantime it may be a bit slower than usual, and that may also affect the site in general. Fear not -- it'll all be better soon.

Thanks for your patience,

Paul
Strange.... Other "very large threads" (the 1/12 scale thread, for example - which has almost 3 times the number of posts) don't suffer this problem.
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Old 01-02-2012, 04:53 PM   #13164
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The real reason is this computer age we live in. I know several hackers who could easily alter Vegas 212 and unless you actually read the code you would never know (I used to do a lot of online gaming and have been a computer hobbyist since the late 80's and still have a lot of friends in the business). It is not just green gas tank envy. If it can be flashed, some enterprising devious soul could alter the program to their own ends which is the reason for the rule. Please note that I am a happy Tekin user and love my RS Pro ESC. Just not for VTA. If you make a truly compliant USVTA legal ESC, I will buy it because I like Tekin products.

Lets please NOT start the ESC arguments again in this thread. We already have about 200 pages of posts on this dead issue. And as always at the local level a track can do whatever they feel they need to do.
I hate it when people say someone could do something. Its easy!

If it is so easy then do it! Prove it. Force everyone to acknowledge the problem with the irrefutable proof of it ACTUALLY HAPPENING. Not in a hypothetical situation, but in reality where we all live.
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Old 01-02-2012, 04:54 PM   #13165
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I disagree that anyone could make changes to our code. Some independent hackers have already looked at most of the controllers and reported back that they are fully encrypted and the firmware cannot be extracted in any useable form that can be changed and put back. The spec mode settings are hardcoded and cannot be changed simply by hacking the communications software.

I do agree that someone could reflash the esc with a completely different firmware. If they can write something from the ground up that is as good as what we have I would like to meet them. That would be a considerable amount of effort to cheat in a class that is all about slow and fun.

Non programmable esc’s can also be reflashed, but no one can actually tech it. They can be reprogrammed by the people that made them or if you choose to believe it by a talented hacker. At least programmable esc’s can be verified and even updated with a version that you know is right. If you really believe someone would go to this much effort to cheat than the dumb boxes do not really provide any more protection. It is a false sense of security and simply fractures the class.

I gave up long ago on trying to change anyone’s mind in the USVTA. If we want to play we can always offer an esc that meets the rules. I am not asking to be accepted to the USVTA. I am pointing out that the broader market does not agree and sticking up for the decision at the ROAR Nats and other major events to include everyone.

I also think the motor rules are unnecessary in these setups and with the 25.5 winds. We will get a good look at all of them running together at this race and see once again if it really matters. However I do enjoy thinking that anything other than a Novak motor will be faster and an unfair advantage. They have been taking a few too many jabs at us lately…

The spirit of the class is to have fun. When you have too many rules it simply assures that someone is always mad about something. All spec classes suffer this problem. So you pick the least amount of rules for the things that really matter and let the rest roll, in the spirit of fun.

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Old 01-02-2012, 05:05 PM   #13166
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This is weird. Did anybody race VTA this weekend? I did and had a great time.
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Old 01-02-2012, 05:18 PM   #13167
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Originally Posted by nashrcracer View Post
Answered your own question didn't you? But more then that, simple rules for a non over complicated class, makes it the fun factor when you don't have to worry about someone else POSSIBLY cheating.

Plus as a track owner I thank Rob for the rules because it makes my life easy. Looking for the tenth advantage is bad enough that Darkside would soak his VTA tires in a plastic bag and traction compound to get an advantage. Whether he does it now is a moot point, it was done to get an advantage. Was it cheating no, was it against the spirit of the class YES, but sooner or later someone takes any class too serious.

Darkside is the only person I know that practices VTA as much as I practice 12th scale. He doesn't change his setup he just runs laps so that he's better at what is I say a fun class. The only time I have ever practice VTA was when I was working on setup and then I have also been know to throw a car in the main just to race and have fun without even qualifying. track owner prerogative.. but it wasn't to win it was to just have fun.

which is the spirit of this class... to have fun!
A. yes I have tried alot of different things to gain a little more speed or control or time...and have shared everyone of them with any and all racers of the class, as with proof in this thread...

http://www.nashrcracer.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2978

FYI...soaking the tires is so when I went to a big event and tread was required, I had a good set to start with...also it kept from needing to sand or use the tire truer like some do...

B. yes I practice VTA, cause you as well as other have told me a million times...smooth lines and less wrecks wins races...so yes I will continue to practice till a 8 min race is perfect, win lose or draw....Im more concern with consistance than setup...the car will do what I need it to do unless its tweeked, and I know how to fix that(sometimes)...but if I can get around the track without breakage and hitting the walls, thats a victory to itself...

VTA is more important to me than any other class...but I run other classes as well...I would just rather run VTA...no stress and alot of fun
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Old 01-02-2012, 05:29 PM   #13168
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This is weird. Did anybody race VTA this weekend? I did and had a great time.
I don't know. I didn't get to because I was in Houston partying with friends all week. Looking forward to racing VTA this weekend coming up. Did convert my VTA car to 17.5 for a race @ M&Ms in Houston on Thursday but it wasn't pretty. Not pretty at all. Fun though. I like VTA better.
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Old 01-02-2012, 05:50 PM   #13169
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Shut up and have fun racing.
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Old 01-02-2012, 06:20 PM   #13170
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^That should be a USVTA rule ^
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