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Old 11-09-2011, 09:16 AM   #12751
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My local experience is probably different than most of you - my local track is a large outdoor asphalt track. Asphalt is of course harder on tires than carpet, and we run higher speeds (3.7 FDR limit) because our track is so large, even though we are using spec 25.5 systems.

At our track, a good smooth driver with a well balanced car setup who is not abusive to tires MIGHT get 5 race days out of a set of FRONT tires, (where a typical race day is two practice runs, three qualifiers, and a main) before they are worn down to slicks. Most of our drivers only get 3 or maybe 4 race days out of FRONTS, and some burn them down in only 2 race days.

We do not police the tire wear at all. The USVTA rules do not explicitly state that tread must be visible, and to be honest there doesn't seem to be any advantage at all on asphalt to running a worn tire (if anything, they seem to grip LESS). Letting our guys run the tires even when most of the tread is gone is thus a cost savings measure for us, considering how fast they wear.

Our rear tires last forever. We will go through four or five sets (or more!) of fronts per each set of rears. The rears are more likely to go away due to aging rubber (they lose grip when the track surface temperature is cold and the car gets loose) than due to wear.

Come to think of it, grip seems best around room temperature. When our track surface is summer hot (it can get to 115 or higher) the tires get a little sick, and when it's cold (50 or under) they give up traction as well; and in both cases the rear seems to suffer the most.
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Last edited by slashdriver; 11-09-2011 at 09:39 AM.
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Old 11-09-2011, 09:23 AM   #12752
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This is just my opinion but in "The spirit of VTA" the rules call for a specific TREADED tire. Once the tread is worn away, they should be replaced. If you can still see and feel tread then they would be fine, but once smooth, they need replaced. Again this is just MY opinion. Many others dont agree but I feel its just cause they dont want to buy more tires for most
I agree with Flying Monkey. Once the tread is worn away (i.e. no longer visible) then the tires should be replaced. The USVTA rules also say "Grinding of tire tread is NOT permitted." Every time you clean your rubber tires after driving your car on the track you are removing a layer of rubber. Eventually you will end up with tires like those in the picture below...




The tires in this pic below are only 5 races old. The tread is clearly visible.
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Old 11-09-2011, 09:27 AM   #12753
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I understand keeping people on the track but I feel class integrity is just as important. Otherwise you end up with a hodge podge class
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Old 11-09-2011, 09:30 AM   #12754
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Originally Posted by wwddww34 View Post
I agree with Flying Monkey. Once the tread is worn away (i.e. no longer visible) then the tires should be replaced. The USVTA rules also say "Grinding of tire tread is NOT permitted." Every time you clean your rubber tires after driving your car on the track you are removing a layer of rubber. Eventually you will end up with tires like those in the picture below...




The tires in this pic below are only 5 races old. The tread is clearly visible.


We have a small track that is fairly tight. How do you guys get wear like above on the front tires.

ours wear on the inside only and I run almost 0 camber and stock caster.

thanks
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Old 11-09-2011, 09:33 AM   #12755
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I agree with Flying Monkey. Once the tread is worn away (i.e. no longer visible) then the tires should be replaced.
I think the spirit of the rules is/was you didn't want folks buying brand new tires, shaving them to slicks, and changing them every run. A tire bill of $100 a race day is no bueno.

Anyway, it doesn't matter be an issue. New tires appear to be faster, so if somebody wants to run on technically worn out tires (and be slower for their trouble), where's the harm in that?
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Old 11-09-2011, 09:35 AM   #12756
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Guess im just a stickler for things being right and not half @$$ done
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Old 11-09-2011, 09:50 AM   #12757
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I think Slashdriver has the right idea. Find out if it matters at your track. Do some back to back testing with fresh but broken in tires and worn tires and see if there is a performance difference. If there isn't one or if the worn tires perform worse then there isn't any reason to police tires. Unless the worn tires give an advantage there isn't any reason to cause issues and tell people to get rid of them. At some point the risk of having a tire separate on the track is higher than putting on new tires.

If running worn tires does give a performance advantage then spec some rules -- tread visible the entire width and circumfrence for example -- and then decide when to tech for it -- beginning, random time, end, etc.
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Old 11-09-2011, 10:11 AM   #12758
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Originally Posted by Flying Monkey View Post
Guess im just a stickler for things being right and not half @$$ done
This is where I'm coming from:

In the late 1990's, I ran the club track I raced at for about six months. At the beginning of the stint, we all ran HPI x patterns. The tires lasted for six months or more. About halfway through it, Proline came out with the S-2 compound, which were two seconds per lap faster. They were the same price as the HPI tires, but you went through a set in eight minutes. I couldn't get a control tire rule instituted, I stopped racing altogether, because frankly a $60 a day tire bill is just unreasonable.

So, that said, if some racer has his chassis a mess, two seconds off the pace, and he's wasting a set of tires in two days, do you really want to go get all tech nazi on him because his tires look bad? Remember, this is a sportsman class, not like Formula 1 (where they mandated a tire wear rule)? Because what you are going to do is run him off based on 'looks bad', and to me, that's not a good reason. IMO Speedworld guys have it exactly right.

And if I wanted to particpate in a car show, I'd go finish this project:



Certainly you are entitled to your own opinion, and free to disagree with me.
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Old 11-09-2011, 10:55 AM   #12759
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What to you dictates a "Sportsman class"?
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Old 11-09-2011, 12:13 PM   #12760
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What to you dictates a "Sportsman class"?
A racy fun class that focuses on cost containment and competiton, where the gear doesn't matter that much. That means:
  • A control tire that doesn't require ruining it to make it fast, and doesn't rapidly degrade.
  • No factory support, which means no chassis of the week, which means the uber fast guys will stay out of it, and the source of hand me down chassis stays cheap and plentiful.
  • A locked in motor/speedo/battery formula.
  • Slower speeds, but not as slow as 4cell/stock was.
  • Emphasis on setup and driver.
  • An easy to drive chassis that isn't quite so easy to drive fast.

I think I mentioned this already, but I'll do it again just for kicks. I've been racing pan car oval for the past decade, most recently 17.5 1s sportsman truck. It has everything on that list except for the first one (the tires, which last a long time, but require you to cut from 2.300 to 2.06-2.08 right out of the package in order to be fast) and the last one (a slow car is horrible to drive, a fast car is cake).

And I stopped running my sedan in 2003 at SoCal because it was everything the above list isn't. Other than change the tires and hang a body, pretty much I blew the dust off of it and am running it as is. I didn't even change the shock oil.

On edit: It seems the point of 'tech' in a class like this is so the fast guys aren't doing "gray area" stuff to spec gear to make it faster, not to penalize a backmarker because he failed tread inspection. If worn out tires were faster, I'd agree with you, but they aren't so anyone running them is likely in the back and doesn't care. Why ruin his fun? You get rid of all the scrubs, you have nobody to race with.
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Last edited by CraigMBA; 11-09-2011 at 12:25 PM.
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Old 11-09-2011, 12:26 PM   #12761
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I dont agree but Ill just leave it alone as it will go no where
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Old 11-09-2011, 12:35 PM   #12762
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I dont agree but Ill just leave it alone as it will go no where
No, please elaborate! I'd be interested to hear what you think. We don't have to agree, it is possible we misunderstood each other, and even if we didn't, you might change my mind.
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Old 11-09-2011, 02:44 PM   #12763
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I find the best tires have about 10 runs on them. The contact patch is set by then. After that, they peak and then stay the same for another 10 runs or so, then fall off a little. The next stage is a blow out. The better the driver, the less tire wear too. The good drivers don't slide through every corner and keep up corner speed. That's is where I lose time when I'm not consistent.
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Old 11-09-2011, 03:21 PM   #12764
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Theres a couple of reasons for that.
1. Most of the racers in this field have a lot of experience at one form or another of RC racing. So there is a whole lot of talent in that field.
2. I was filming so obviously I wasnt driving.

Actually there was a little carnage but it isnt visible on the straight camera.

Here is the other camera.

+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.
Nice Video.
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Old 11-09-2011, 03:42 PM   #12765
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VTA racing has been nothing short of a miracle at my local track. Back in April 2011 the indoor carpet track was barely getting used each weekend. When it was used the most drivers you would see was between 4 to 6 with half of them racing 1/12 scale and the other racing 1/10 Sedans. The track owner vowed to tear up and throw away the carpet and replace the track with a dirt oval. In May 2011 the VTA Race class was introduced. Since then we have seen 3 times as many on-road drivers (up to 18) show up for on-road racing. The owner also added an extra day of racing in the middle of the week. As of today we have had 51 consecutive VTA races with an average of 5 drivers showing up at each race. The VTA rules we run at our club are a carbon copy of the U.S. VTA rule set with the addition of a "Newcomer's Addendum" that allows brand new VTA car owners to show up and race with a box-stock HPI Sprint 2 Sport '69 Camaro. Once they get good enough at driving their Sprint 2 (i.e. they can finish in the top 3 in a qualifier) then they are expected to upgrade their car and make it conform to the U.S. VTA Rules.

As far as tires go, everybody runs a set of VTA tires with at least 3 visible lines of tread still on the tire. A few drivers have tried driving with super worn "bald" tires but their lap times take a huge hit (sometimes adding 2 seconds per lap). Many of the drivers believe that a fairly new set of VTA tires with about 3 heats of racing under them is the best for performance on the carpet.
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