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Old 09-14-2010, 06:39 PM   #9151
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i believe if you read back thru Rob's posts, he said there wasn't any performance gain, but they wore out a lot quicker

just be careful going with them, they aren't the 'popular' tire for vintage racing - so you might have trouble finding them in stock at places
Thanks. I don't have any interest in using these myself, but some of the younger guys do. If they perform the same, I don't have a problem with it. Especially if allowing them will help grow the class. I'll pass this on and let them decide if they still want to use them.
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Old 09-14-2010, 06:45 PM   #9152
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Those "performance" tires feel very thin, and hate to put it this way, cheaply made.

Plus the trasition from sidewall to tread is very severe, almost square, which gives the tire a sharp edge.

I'd stick with the standard VTA tires. We didn't even bother to run the set we had, instead saving them for a shelf queen.

They would probably be cool if you had a vintage drag race class. I could see those hiding under a gasser body.
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Old 09-14-2010, 07:10 PM   #9153
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Ive had two different sets, and both pair are horrible for racing..imo...Ive tried everything to get them to perform half as good as the regular VTA's and had zero luck...I wouldnt waste time or money on them...not even for shelf queens or kings...not all cars are girls...lol
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Old 09-14-2010, 07:44 PM   #9154
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Yeah, but what'll no doubt happen is that your fastest guy will run them and then everybody'll piss and moan that the tires were an advantage. Whether they were or weren't isn't the point, they'll instantly forget that this guy had been beating them like a drum every week even on the other tires.

Something to consider...why even open up the question? If the sole reason these guys won't run VTA is because one tread pattern vs another, a characteristic that's not even visible once the body is on and the car is on the track, then my wager is they aren't THAT serious about it anyway.

I'll break out the old wheeze: If everybody is on the same tire no one is at any advantage and no one is at any disadvantage, guaranteed. There is also no opportunity for there to be a perception, rightly or wrongly, that it is otherwise.
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Old 09-15-2010, 04:38 AM   #9155
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I'll break out the old wheeze:
Agree 100%. You are preaching to the choir my friend. However, you can tell people this till you are blue in the face but they won't understand until they experience it themselves. Even then, it seems that only about 50% will get it. If they want to run an inferior tire because it looks cooler, have at it. I'm trying to get VTA started at our track as an alternative to the craziness that is going on with rubber touring car with the speedo wars. If we have to bend a few rules to get it rolling, I'm ok with that. We can tighten things up later. For now, I think we are going to go with 21.5 motors with no timing or boost. We will also allow 27t brushed and Tamiya black can sport tuned motors. We are a small club that is striving to grow and draw new people so we are trying to make it easy for people to join the class with equipment they already have. That being said, I will do everything in my power to adopt the official rules as soon as possible. I think they are simple, make sense and are good for the sport.
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Old 09-15-2010, 04:51 AM   #9156
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Default motor timing question

The new rules are clearly aimed at slowing things down and leveling the playing field. I like that. However, it looks like some of the legal motors have adjustable timing and some don't. Wouldn't it have made more sense to just nip this in the bud and only allow motors with fixed endbells? Seems to me like a big door has been left open. I know you guys had a good reason for this so please enlighten me.
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Old 09-15-2010, 06:18 AM   #9157
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Agree 100%. You are preaching to the choir my friend. However, you can tell people this till you are blue in the face but they won't understand until they experience it themselves. Even then, it seems that only about 50% will get it. If they want to run an inferior tire because it looks cooler, have at it. I'm trying to get VTA started at our track as an alternative to the craziness that is going on with rubber touring car with the speedo wars. If we have to bend a few rules to get it rolling, I'm ok with that. We can tighten things up later. For now, I think we are going to go with 21.5 motors with no timing or boost. We will also allow 27t brushed and Tamiya black can sport tuned motors. We are a small club that is striving to grow and draw new people so we are trying to make it easy for people to join the class with equipment they already have. That being said, I will do everything in my power to adopt the official rules as soon as possible. I think they are simple, make sense and are good for the sport.
I would offer, from personal experience, that what you describe is the EXACT reason to toe the line on the tires out of the box. I understand setting it up to run what folks may already have, but they're going to have to buy tires anyway. No matter when it is, coming back later to "tighten things up" is always fraught with pissing and moaning to which you'll be adding the opportunity for "but I already have these". Great, run 21.5, etc, but for stuff they're going to have to buy anyway just bite the bullet and go. If they've been running rubber TC for any time at all they've been exposed to spec tires so this should be nothing really new.

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The new rules are clearly aimed at slowing things down and leveling the playing field. I like that. However, it looks like some of the legal motors have adjustable timing and some don't. Wouldn't it have made more sense to just nip this in the bud and only allow motors with fixed endbells? Seems to me like a big door has been left open. I know you guys had a good reason for this so please enlighten me.
The SS is actually timing-adjustable too, over pretty much the same range as the Ballistic sticker. The problem Rob, et al, are addressing now is that the Ballistic can apparently be adjusted past what the sticker shows. This has been addressed for now that any adjustment has to be within the range shown on the sticker and they are looking for a method to identify when/if that sticker is moved.
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Old 09-15-2010, 07:20 AM   #9158
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The SS is actually timing-adjustable too, over pretty much the same range as the Ballistic sticker. The problem Rob, et al, are addressing now is that the Ballistic can apparently be adjusted past what the sticker shows. This has been addressed for now that any adjustment has to be within the range shown on the sticker and they are looking for a method to identify when/if that sticker is moved.


There's always something I guess. Sounds like what we need is a sealed motor that cannot be adjusted. But then something else will emerge.
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Old 09-15-2010, 07:25 AM   #9159
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I would offer, from personal experience, that what you describe is the EXACT reason to toe the line on the tires out of the box. I understand setting it up to run what folks may already have, but they're going to have to buy tires anyway. No matter when it is, coming back later to "tighten things up" is always fraught with pissing and moaning to which you'll be adding the opportunity for "but I already have these". Great, run 21.5, etc, but for stuff they're going to have to buy anyway just bite the bullet and go. If they've been running rubber TC for any time at all they've been exposed to spec tires so this should be nothing really new.
Very good points. Thanks. I realize this is a slippery slope. At this point, I'm just trying to make sure the class happens so I'm trying to keep an open mind.
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Old 09-15-2010, 09:01 AM   #9160
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I would offer, from personal experience, that what you describe is the EXACT reason to toe the line on the tires out of the box. I understand setting it up to run what folks may already have, but they're going to have to buy tires anyway. No matter when it is, coming back later to "tighten things up" is always fraught with pissing and moaning to which you'll be adding the opportunity for "but I already have these". Great, run 21.5, etc, but for stuff they're going to have to buy anyway just bite the bullet and go. If they've been running rubber TC for any time at all they've been exposed to spec tires so this should be nothing really new.
We are fighting the 21.5 vs 25.5 fight at our track right now. It has not been fun and we have several racers that are threatening to leave. Our issue is that there is a track about an hour away that races opposite weekends as us and we don't want to discourage then from joining us or our racers going there. But some people are having a hard time understanding that.

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The SS is actually timing-adjustable too, over pretty much the same range as the Ballistic sticker. The problem Rob, et al, are addressing now is that the Ballistic can apparently be adjusted past what the sticker shows. This has been addressed for now that any adjustment has to be within the range shown on the sticker and they are looking for a method to identify when/if that sticker is moved.
A simple VOID security sticker would be the most inexpensive route. And the best route would use engraved endbells. But the engraved endbell would increase the price of the motor.
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Old 09-15-2010, 09:04 AM   #9161
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[QUOTE=2xs;7943087]We are fighting the 21.5 vs 25.5 fight at our track right now. It has not been fun and we have several racers that are threatening to leave.

Just a thought...instead of fighting over it, why not let those who want to remain with 21.5s race them in a vta ss class ?
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Old 09-15-2010, 09:28 AM   #9162
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[QUOTE=hotrodchevy14;7943101]
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We are fighting the 21.5 vs 25.5 fight at our track right now. It has not been fun and we have several racers that are threatening to leave.

Just a thought...instead of fighting over it, why not let those who want to remain with 21.5s race them in a vta ss class ?
Just restrict the FDR and force timing to 0*. The race director will have to establish the limit. Put on a large enough pinion and small enough spur and they slow down very nicely.
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Old 09-15-2010, 09:35 AM   #9163
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[QUOTE=hotrodchevy14;7943101]
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2xs View Post
We are fighting the 21.5 vs 25.5 fight at our track right now. It has not been fun and we have several racers that are threatening to leave.

Just a thought...instead of fighting over it, why not let those who want to remain with 21.5s race them in a vta ss class ?
I think that is the road we are headed down.

[QUOTE=liljohn1064;7943172]
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Just restrict the FDR and force timing to 0*. The race director will have to establish the limit. Put on a large enough pinion and small enough spur and they slow down very nicely.
We are looking into a FDR limit to keep them in the same class. But we have not had enough of a turnout to get some good hard numbers. Is the timing just for the 21.5 cars? and what is there to prevent someone from moving the timing sticker before inspection? Until there is a way to tell if the sticker has been tampered with this is a rule that will be hard to enforce. I say give them their timing but further restrict the FDR to make up for the additional timing.

Last edited by 2xs; 09-15-2010 at 10:20 AM.
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Old 09-15-2010, 10:10 AM   #9164
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FDR would be the easiest. Cheaters will cheat, sad but true.
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Old 09-15-2010, 11:19 AM   #9165
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Cheaters will cheat, sad but true.
QFT!

Even with all of the problems we are having getting our race program back on track I am still looking forward to a good year of racing.
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