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Old 07-30-2010, 11:04 PM   #8941
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I gotta come home and look at this

everybody take about 24 hours and relax, please.....
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Old 07-31-2010, 05:38 AM   #8942
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I gotta come home and look at this

everybody take about 24 hours and relax, please.....
Everything's good here Rob except the name calling.

A good heated, passionate discussion is a good indication that people are interested in VTA. If this thread was dead, then I'd be worried

The two sides of this argument are a good snapshot of the state of our sport today. It's bigger than VTA. The technology advancement of speed controllers has divided us. There are those that have embraced it and want to go with it and there are those that think it's bad for the sport. Not many are in the middle. Racing, of any sort, has always had to deal with this. In the end, the survival of the sport is dependent on how these technology improvements are dealt with. Look at the most popular real racing classes. They are highly spec. Nascar, Late models, Modifieds, Sprint cars, Indy cars. Even F1 which is probably the most open class in the world is very Spec.

The folks that are advancing the technology always get hurt because it's their efforts that get banned.

I remember turbine powered Indy cars and a Can Am car that literally sucked itself to the ground. All, technological marvels but not good for the sport.
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Old 07-31-2010, 05:52 AM   #8943
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Everything's good here Rob except the name calling.

A good heated, passionate discussion is a good indication that people are interested in VTA. If this thread was dead, then I'd be worried

The two sides of this argument are a good snapshot of the state of our sport today. It's bigger than VTA. The technology advancement of speed controllers has divided us. There are those that have embraced it and want to go with it and there are those that think it's bad for the sport. Not many are in the middle. Racing, of any sort, has always had to deal with this. In the end, the survival of the sport is dependent on how these technology improvements are dealt with. Look at the most popular real racing classes. They are highly spec. Nascar, Late models, Modifieds, Sprint cars, Indy cars. Even F1 which is probably the most open class in the world is very Spec.

The folks that are advancing the technology always get hurt because it's their efforts that get banned.

I remember turbine powered Indy cars and a Can Am car that literally sucked itself to the ground. All, technological marvels but not good for the sport.
Yes you nailed it. I think that the esc tech is good we just need to get the motor manufactures to make higher wind motors and keep all the esc's full timing and boost it would be easier for the newbies. Everybody can just run any esc they prefer and the motors would be slower like 30.5t something like that. trying to get a chassis to allow a 55t pinion and 81t spure can be a pain just to run no timing and boost i had to dremmel a huge notch in my factory team tc4 just to get my correct final I wont do that on the xray ill chouse not to run and go home. Everyone is over complicating things a bit. Its where the tech is at we need to support it. there are plenty of senior spec classes with silver cans for the ones that don't have the talent yet or are on tight budget. All these diff classes are deluting the other classes. I remember when every one ran touring with diff classes with in it. tamiya silvercans in full blown touring cars to mod touring and there were alot of people 4 mains in stock. Now at the track we have 20 diff classes with 30 people showing. Its two many all This Vta Rcgt 21.5 spec 21.5 touring. Everybody is killing it by trying to tip toe around running a touring car the way it was ment to be ran.

Thanks for letting me rant.
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Old 07-31-2010, 06:04 AM   #8944
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With the whole laptop thing(oh I have to buy a laptop now screw that) Just think a couple yrs ago you would be running foams and brushed motors.

Cheap laptop from craigs list $50 or less You don't need much mine is 400mhz processor and it works great and is open to anyone who would need it at the track.

back in the day.

A set of foam tires ever two weeks or so.
A tire truer 100 to 400 bux
a box of armetures.
comm lathe.
big expencive charger to cycle batterys.
clean the motor every run.
This is alot more expencive than it is to buy a laptop even new.

Now tell me this if its such a bother to hook your ecu up to a laptop and do a little research to set it up. Then why wasn't it a bother back in the day to do a ton of research on motor brushes springs comm turning cleaning an cutting the motor every run or so and spending hundreds of dollers on tires a season?

I don't get it at all. The Tech has made is so easy to be fast and compete with the pack its mindless but every one wants to kill it. Back in the day i remember trying so hard to get everything out of the stock brushed motors to get fast. now you just hook a laptop up and tinker and bam your there. no more motor tinkering. Spec classes have always cost so much more money than semi open classes.
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Old 07-31-2010, 06:49 AM   #8945
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I don't get it at all. The Tech has made is so easy to be fast and compete with the pack its mindless but every one wants to kill it.
Which is why ROAR has 17.5 and open/mod/whatever.

Not everyone wants to, or has the skill, to go fast. I'd rather go slow, and race 9 other guys to the finish than go insanely fast and put the rest of the field down by 3-4 laps.

Other people would rather do the opposite. I don't knock them and their goals in this hobby. VTA has different goals than the established ROAR classes. Once people figure that out then you won't have this forum littered with "why go slow? why hinder tech?" posts.
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Old 07-31-2010, 07:08 AM   #8946
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If slow was the goal then I don't understand why the FDR limit was lifted, I mean whats the point in making all these changes if we are gonna be allowed to gear the cars to run at similar speeds that we are currently running? If the racing is set to be slower and so even then maybe the FDR should be set to 4.2 instead of everyone trying to chase gear.
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Old 07-31-2010, 07:09 AM   #8947
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Let me be perfectly clear: This is the SLOW class.

It's also the different class. Different bodies, different tires, different insert...


At this time, there is no way I'm going to allow programmable speed controls. First off, I'm not changing what we have been preparing for since last October a few weeks before the new rules go into effect. Second, if you look at the list of ESCs, the majority are sub $100. Which means you can get one at a good price. Thirdly, with the programmable stuff, it's inevitable somebody at some track will beat everybody down with an expensive ESC on spec mode, and then it will be "Oh you have to have XXX because it's really faster". **Perception is reality** Not to mention that the ROAR nats and Vegas are coming up soon and they will run spec mode classes. Those races will be the first major tests of how this will all shake out. I'm not putting this whole thing in a trick bag when it turns out something is some how "better" than everything else.

The current plan will not be changed at this point.
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Old 07-31-2010, 07:13 AM   #8948
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Just to re-iterate: THE CURRENT PLAN WILL NOT BE CHANGED, so please, ready yourselves for the new rules. I know a bunch of tracks will do what they want to anyway (look at the some of the posts here), but this is what my vision is.
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Old 07-31-2010, 07:31 AM   #8949
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It's a great vision, stick with it!!

Had the opportunity to test 25.5/Havoc earlier this spring and summer. Great speed and provided for some of the closest racing i've ever experienced. It was a great driving experience and really put the emphasis back on driving the perfect lines. You can't rely on horsepower to make up for your mistakes.
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Old 07-31-2010, 07:31 AM   #8950
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Thanks Rob for sticking to your guns and not changing the rules.
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Old 07-31-2010, 09:29 AM   #8951
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USVTA rules notwithstanding, my club has advised that they will be allowing Tekins in Spec. mode. Our VTA racers have already been using them for the past 6 months or so. Tekin's Spec. mode was made for such a class, it seems very shortsighted to not allow them on a broader scale. To put it politely, it actually really knaws my craw something bad - hopefully by next fall ....
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Old 07-31-2010, 09:53 AM   #8952
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You are doing the right thing Rob.

It's easy to stand your ground when you're right. And you sir, are absolutely doing what's best for the class.

Recently, our track/club created a class by popular vote. Lesson learned was that you can't please everyone and no matter how hard you try, and you just can't convince some people that driving skills are the most important factor in getting to the finish line first.

You understand why most of us race and have created a class that fits that almost perfectly. Pejota said it best. "I'd rather go slow, and race 9 other guys to the finish than go insanely fast and put the rest of the field down by 3-4 laps." I race in two silver can classes just for this reason.

Two thumbs up!
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Old 07-31-2010, 02:36 PM   #8953
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Man, you just don't get it.

VTA is the slower class. Or at least that's what it was a couple of years ago before things got out of control.

If you want to go really fast, there are lots of classes for that. VTA isn't one of them.
I agree with this 1000 % !!
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Old 07-31-2010, 02:57 PM   #8954
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We are not asking you to change the rules at this point. We get it, make a product that meets the rules for this year or go away.

We also get it that people want a slower class and equal power for fair competition. We race at 70% or less throttle epa on our carpet track with 17.5 setups all the time and have a blast. Setups are not as critical, wear and tear is minimal, crashes are rare and everyone is in the hunt and trading a little paint at times without chaos and damage ensuing.

Sorry Rob, I really did not mean to rile the troups. It is not like this is a large profitable market we are trying to take advantage of and force our way. We simply wanted to be part of it and think we belong there. We just sent a bunch of 20yr old sweatshirts, hats and esc’s to the vintage offroad nationals and we are bummed to be excluded from this vintage series given our long history in rc racing. We thought we provided a solution that matched the other options and was easy to tech. You caught us off guard with the last minute general exclusion of all programmable esc’s and needed to understand the reasons.

Unfortunately no matter what decision you make you have to deal with the backlash and I do not envy your position. I do applaud and respect the time and effort you put into this. I hope you realize we are on the same side and both want racing to prosper and people to have fun.

This is just a great place to get feedback from the core groups and understand their concerns so we can make good decisions for the future. Unfortunately sometimes we have to wade thru the emotions and opinions to get there. It comes with the territory and nobody likes to be excluded from the party without good reason.

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Old 07-31-2010, 03:03 PM   #8955
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I just loaded V208 into my Tekin, and it's obviously slower in "spec" profile #1. We run zero timing rules at our track and don't see any advantage between brands of ESC. Personal opinion - It's easier to tech a blinking LED than to visually identify (correctly) which of the 8 (or more?) versions of LRP ESC is in the car.
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