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Old 07-30-2010, 12:26 PM   #8896
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Originally Posted by robk View Post
There will only be non externally adjustable speed controls for USVTA racing
Do you think the ‘spec’ mode is not equal to the esc’s that are approved currently for the USVTA?

Do you think people are going to cheat if updateable and adjustable esc’s are used?

Trying to get our head around this decision. We are about as vintage as RC gets and just feel a little jilted. We are also truly interested if your testing shows something different since we think the spec modes perform the same as the esc’s on your approved list.

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Old 07-30-2010, 12:32 PM   #8897
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Ive heard some good things about the SP.......hope it makes the cut....

imo...just ban the tekin...and the bd...flashing lights or not...just my feel on it

oh the bd is....tekin next
I just do not get this either. A hater for what reason? Support foreign OEM products and ban Tekin's designed and manufactured in America products in a US based vintage series. That is just wrong and like putting a Hyundi motor in your Camaro. It is your choice, but do not take the freedom of choice from everyone.

Please give me a real reason that we should specifically be banned from your series. We are all about grass roots racing and helping it continue to succeed. So give us a little insight here as to why we are the bad guys in your mind.

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Old 07-30-2010, 12:43 PM   #8898
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This has been covered before.

The esc's on the list CAN'T be in any mode other than "standard". No need for tech, no need (or opportunity) to create hard feelings, etc.

The Tekin, by it's nature, is fully adjustable. A good thing for hard-core racing, but not "the thing" for what is being attempted here. Yes, a "spec" profile could be developed but the unfortunate thing is that doing so creates something to be policed. Yes, it would be great if everybody could play nice so there was never a need to ask someone to show you their blinky lights, etc, and in my general experience everybody pretty much DOES play by the rules. Unfortunately there are always those guys who think they got beat by a cheat, so the club is left with having to "challenge" someone who is probably 100% legal.

The advantage, and one I wholeheartedly support, is that spec'ing the non-adjustable esc's takes the question off the table period.

And "taking away freedom of choice" is a non-starter from the get-go. There are ALL kinds of classes where the racer is absolutely free to choose whatever equipment they want. Spec classes existed in one form or another for a LONG time. In this case even with the spec there are choices.
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Old 07-30-2010, 12:49 PM   #8899
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Originally Posted by athaler29 View Post
I ran my 21.5 with a Havoc (no timing, turbo, etc) and my fastest lap was only 3 tenths quicker than the 25.5 setup.
3 tenths seems small on the surface, but don't sell it short...it's a significant number.

If you are running on a track with 10 second laps that 3 tenths represents 3%. Our club layouts tend to be shorter than that, usually closer to 9 seconds, so it represents even more of a change.

In terms of "driving experience" there is a significant difference in controllability, etc just backing off those few tenths.
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Old 07-30-2010, 12:55 PM   #8900
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Unfortunately there are always those guys who think they got beat by a cheat, so the club is left with having to "challenge" someone who is probably 100% legal.
The solution to that is simple and has been around for quite a while. If someone challenges that another driver's equipment is not legal, he request a tech inspection for the car in question, put's up some cash, $20, $100, depending on size of event. If the car is legal, the money goes to the driver, if it's not legal, the money goes back to the guy that complained, and the cheater gets a DQ.
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Old 07-30-2010, 12:58 PM   #8901
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I would say to add to Scottrik's comment about freedom of choice, you do have freedom of choice within the confines of the rules. If Tekin makes an ESC that fits those rules, I am sure USVTA would welcome them with open arms like they do Novak and others.

I for one wouldn't mind to see a budget RS like Novak's Havoc in features.
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Old 07-30-2010, 01:00 PM   #8902
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Originally Posted by ebruce View Post
The solution to that is simple and has been around for quite a while. If someone challenges that another driver's equipment is not legal, he request a tech inspection for the car in question, put's up some cash, $20, $100, depending on size of event. If the car is legal, the money goes to the driver, if it's not legal, the money goes back to the guy that complained, and the cheater gets a DQ.
Or leave the rules the way Rob has them set up and not deal with that kind of stuff at all.
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Old 07-30-2010, 01:13 PM   #8903
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So the possibility of cheating is the issue? Truly sad….

For those who have not seen our new spec mode it is very hard not to notice the annoying, continuous and bright flashing led. You will likely be able to tell from the driver stand which cars on the grid have a Tekin in spec mode. It is at least no harder than looking in a car to see which esc is installed.

We are just trying to give you what you need and join in on the fun. We are not going to try and swim upstream or make a big deal about it.
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Old 07-30-2010, 01:15 PM   #8904
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamTekin View Post
I just do not get this either. A hater for what reason? Support foreign OEM products and ban Tekin's designed and manufactured in America products in a US based vintage series. That is just wrong and like putting a Hyundi motor in your Camaro. It is your choice, but do not take the freedom of choice from everyone.

Please give me a real reason that we should specifically be banned from your series. We are all about grass roots racing and helping it continue to succeed. So give us a little insight here as to why we are the bad guys in your mind.

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Perhaps you might need to think outside the box, literally.

I do think Tekin is the best controller out there!

Sure there are others that boast claims of speeds that seem impossible. Regardless perhaps Tekin needs to create a module that is ran on board to show if the ESC is in V200 or V203 mode or a special "SPEC" mode using a small digital display. So when going through tech, the mode is clear and informative only adjustable through a laptop. Call it a little black box to make Tekin ESC into a open or "Spec" controller, no questions asked.

If you could create something like that the size of a reciever or smaller, it could allow your controller to participate in cost controlled classes as well as limited to open classes. Tamiya Championship Series Trackside race did limit Tekin's to V200 series software in April. Physically then cannot check every ESC, I am some took their chance to fly under the radar so to speak running V203.

Although I have not worked with the SPEC flashing lights, that might be worth looking at for this series.
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Old 07-30-2010, 01:20 PM   #8905
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Originally Posted by A-Ko View Post
perhaps Tekin needs to create a module that is ran on board to show if the ESC is in V200 or V203 mode or a special "SPEC" mode using a small digital display. So when going through tech, the mode is clear and informative only adjustable through a laptop. Call it a little black box to make Tekin ESC into a open or "Spec" controller, no questions asked.
I think what we have now is way more straight forward than that and even harder to find a way around. You can easily see if a car is in spec mode when the car stops at the end of the race on the track and is sitting in nuetral. If you think a driver is cheating get there before him and see it for yourself
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Old 07-30-2010, 01:35 PM   #8906
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Originally Posted by TeamTekin View Post
I think what we have now is way more straight forward than that and even harder to find a way around. You can easily see if a car is in spec mode when the car stops at the end of the race on the track and is sitting in nuetral. If you think a driver is cheating get there before him and see it for yourself
Although how do you work around tracks that only allow V200 software instead of V203?

With the annoying blinky lights (not really annoying, just easy to spot) what are your limits to that mode as far as adjustments? Is this a special download or is it V204 download?
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Old 07-30-2010, 01:38 PM   #8907
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottrik View Post
This has been covered before.

The esc's on the list CAN'T be in any mode other than "standard". No need for tech, no need (or opportunity) to create hard feelings, etc.

The Tekin, by it's nature, is fully adjustable. A good thing for hard-core racing, but not "the thing" for what is being attempted here. Yes, a "spec" profile could be developed but the unfortunate thing is that doing so creates something to be policed. Yes, it would be great if everybody could play nice so there was never a need to ask someone to show you their blinky lights, etc, and in my general experience everybody pretty much DOES play by the rules. Unfortunately there are always those guys who think they got beat by a cheat, so the club is left with having to "challenge" someone who is probably 100% legal.

The advantage, and one I wholeheartedly support, is that spec'ing the non-adjustable esc's takes the question off the table period.

And "taking away freedom of choice" is a non-starter from the get-go. There are ALL kinds of classes where the racer is absolutely free to choose whatever equipment they want. Spec classes existed in one form or another for a LONG time. In this case even with the spec there are choices.
These two lines sum everything up in a simple way. If you fail to see the logic behind these rules you are never going to find it unless you get your way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamTekin View Post
I just do not get this either. A hater for what reason? Support foreign OEM products and ban Tekin's designed and manufactured in America products in a US based vintage series. That is just wrong and like putting a Hyundi motor in your Camaro. It is your choice, but do not take the freedom of choice from everyone.

Please give me a real reason that we should specifically be banned from your series. We are all about grass roots racing and helping it continue to succeed. So give us a little insight here as to why we are the bad guys in your mind.

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I can’t speak for Rob as he’s the leader of the USVTA but what I can say that’s he’s done a bunch of testing to get this all worked out and make everything fair and level for all. If Tekin wants to make an ESC that’s non computer adjustable and fits within the rules set forth then there would be no reason it wouldn’t be allowed to be use. The fact is the way the rules are structured the Tekin along with LRP and AE/BD and SP and NOVAK they all have ESC's that are not legal. Some do have ESC's that are legal as they fall within the rules. Its really that simple…..make an esc that fits these rules. But please don’t come in here saying you are taking away choices…..because like its been stated you still have your choice to run the class or not. The made in the USA statement…please really do you even need to go there.
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Old 07-30-2010, 01:39 PM   #8908
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It is V208 that has the spec mode profile. You are limited to choosing lipo cut off level, brushed or brushless, fw/rev, drag brake and throttle profile, such as linear, or more or less agressive. That's it. No timing, no boost. The flashing LED is great for quick and easy identification of spec mode.
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Old 07-30-2010, 01:47 PM   #8909
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamTekin View Post
I just do not get this either. A hater for what reason? Support foreign OEM products and ban Tekin's designed and manufactured in America products in a US based vintage series. That is just wrong and like putting a Hyundi motor in your Camaro. It is your choice, but do not take the freedom of choice from everyone.

The whole American based products doesn’t hold any water either. That Hyundai motor was probably produced or built in the USA and that Camaro was probably produced or built in Mexico or Canada so you tell me what’s more American? Does the name make it American? If something is packaged or partly assembled in America does that make it an American made product? Times have changed and using this whole American made ideology about the reason that your ESC is not allowed is just foolish fodder to get a rise out of people who don’t realize that not much is really 100% made in America any more.
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Old 07-30-2010, 02:04 PM   #8910
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The way to stop all of this back and forth bickering is just spec the ESC/motor to one brand. Of course, that would mean those that don't have them will have to make another purchase but with everyone running the same ESC/motor, then you will not have squat to argue about. I say this because there is a class of spec nitro racing in Mexico City in which there is one engine choice, the OS 21VG. There is not arguing, debating, rules changing, etc. Either you have that engine in your car to run their spec class or you don't run in that class. Everyone has the same powerplant so tech'ing is easy. They did that because of what you guys are bickering about as far as Tekin vs Black Diamond vs Novak vs LRP vs Speed Passion. Be thankful you have the choice to run what you are comfortable with. When the decision to finally just "spec" it to one ESC and motor, just remember that all the bickering brought it on.
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