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U.S. Vintage Trans-Am Racing

Old 04-13-2008, 09:28 PM
  #796  
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Speaking of tuning.....for TA cars any advice from well seasoned racers on how to best tune a TA car? Do you tackle the task any differently than you do say 6 cell stock rubber cars?

I recently came upon the Hudy setup book. Initially it looked kind of like a cult, but it seems to be extremely well thought out. The free download is here:

http://www.hudy.net/xhudy/showfile.p...252739b1ad8c24

They tell us to use the below changes in this particular order:

Downstops
Ride height
Droop
Track-width
Camber
Caster
Toe
Steering throw
Tweak

What do you think about the order Hudy gives in relation to a Trans Am chassis?

At the end of their book they have a "quick reference table" that so far has seemed to be helpful to me.
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Old 04-13-2008, 09:32 PM
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[QUOTE=g12314;4352548]You have a personal issue with me, fine, send it in a PM but dont expect a response./QUOTE]


What?

I just said thank you after you explained your opinion in your last post.

I'm not sure why you are going in a weird direction and telling me to PM you and then telling me you won't respond to my PM? Why would I send you a PM that you won't answer?

Please fill me in.
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Old 04-13-2008, 09:43 PM
  #798  
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Keeping speed around corners.

I try to get my TA car to go into and get out of corners as fast as possible because as everyone knows there's no punch. I'm not exactly sure how to improve my car's setup to make that happen.

During the weeks leading up to the recent national TA race I was at the track practicing and observed other racers testing and tuning. Some of the racers were the guys who finished in the top 20.

What I saw some of them doing was taking a car that was well planted, not traction rolling, going around turns and it seemed as if they'd take the car back into the pits and tune it to intentionally make it go up on two wheels thru turns. They would then either alter their driving style or make another quick change to take some of the traction roll out but still have the car almost go up on two wheels thru turns.

Was I just imagining that or is "almost traction rolling through turns" something a good driver wants their TA car to do to keep speed up throughout turns?
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Old 04-13-2008, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by RocketRob40
Second, I got chased out of the OTHER thread - btw, that was also discussing YOUR big race (seems silly to have two) - and politely told to air my suggestions in this one. So that's what I did - plain and simple.
I didn't chase you out. I politely mentioned this was the proper place for you to go on about TA racing and the place where you'd get the best bang for your buck.



Personally , on forums, I like a great heated debate and also enjoy a great rant.

The other thread was about promoting the national race and it would have just been a bad thing to create a large noise to signal ratio there.

Please rock on, oldman.
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Old 04-13-2008, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Ike
An older RDX, by the way, thanks again for the blade
Oh, no problem at all. I have a few suggestions for you that would've made your life easier right off the bat. First, widen the front-end of the car by using more spacers at the couplers. This will bring the front width in-line with the rear and prevent the car from transferring as much weight to the nose of the car on corner entry. Second, try running less caster (I ran 2*). Less caster = less weight jacking and will reduce any tendency to traction roll. Third, try raising your front camber link on the inside hole. This lowers the roll center, decreases camber gain, makes the car roll slower, and will also decrease the car's want to flip.

A combination of one or all of these will get your car to the point where it's not even thinking about lifting, let alone traction rolling.
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Old 04-13-2008, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by g12314
Ike,

I didnt mean to offend you, or anyone else. Just stated that you should work on the setup before glueing the tire, which it sounds like you did.

Kenji posted a list of things to do to tires BEFORE working on the setup, which in my opinion was incorrect. I didnt want to see a bunch of tires get glued by newer racers potentially reading this thread for setup information.

Jimmy.
Wasn't offended in the least. Sorry if it came across that way. If anything I found the situation quite funny, as did some of the Trackside guys that were pitting around me. But yeah, I'm hardly suggesting anyone do what I did, or glueing the sidewalls/treads out of anything but desperation.
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Old 04-13-2008, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by chicagokenji
Keeping speed around corners.

I try to get my TA car to go into and get out of corners as fast as possible because as everyone knows there's no punch. I'm not exactly sure how to improve my car's setup to make that happen.

During the weeks leading up to the recent national TA race I was at the track practicing and observed other racers testing and tuning. Some of the racers were the guys who finished in the top 20.

What I saw some of them doing was taking a car that was well planted, not traction rolling, going around turns and it seemed as if they'd take the car back into the pits and tune it to intentionally make it go up on two wheels thru turns. They would then either alter their driving style or make another quick change to take some of the traction roll out but still have the car almost go up on two wheels thru turns.

Was I just imagining that or is "almost traction rolling through turns" something a good driver wants their TA car to do to keep speed up throughout turns?
These things you observed are normally BAD approaches. There is no reason for any well-setup car to be traction rolling (or even close to it, really) on the grip the carpet had yesterday. That will require some setup knowledge, and in my previous post I outlined some of the steps one would take to take traction out of the car very effectively.
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Old 04-13-2008, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian McGreevy
Oh, no problem at all. I have a few suggestions for you that would've made your life easier right off the bat. First, widen the front-end of the car by using more spacers at the couplers. This will bring the front width in-line with the rear and prevent the car from transferring as much weight to the nose of the car on corner entry. Second, try running less caster (I ran 2*). Less caster = less weight jacking and will reduce any tendency to traction roll. Third, try raising your front camber link on the inside hole. This lowers the roll center, decreases camber gain, makes the car roll slower, and will also decrease the car's want to flip.

A combination of one or all of these will get your car to the point where it's not even thinking about lifting, let alone traction rolling.
I thought about widening the front end but didn't because the tires were already rubbing a touch on the inside fenders when the suspension was fully compressed. It wasn't changing the handling of the car but the week prior when the body was a touch lower it was. If I had raised the body any more it would have looked like a crossover I was at 2 degrees for caster as well so that probably wasn't it. My camber links are a little longer, I think on the upper second hole from the inside. If I ever experience this again I'll mess with my camber links. At Trackside the car was a touch loose but pretty fast, at The Track I was rolling. Thanks for the help.
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Old 04-13-2008, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian McGreevy
well-setup car
Thanks Brian.

For the benefit of those of us wanting to learn, how would you describe how a well setup car handles. Anything specific to TA would be great.

I've been racing for lots of years but on road only a few. I've never had the opportunity with on road cars where a well versed very good racer would say "here's my radio try this out, this is what a well setup car drives like". I've always had an on road car that I used it's manufacturer's manual to get it box stock then made adjustments to try and get it to do what I thought would help it's handling.
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Old 04-13-2008, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by chicagokenji
Thanks Brian.

For the benefit of those of us wanting to learn, how would you describe how a well setup car handles. Anything specific to TA would be great.

I've been racing for lots of years but on road only a few. I've never had the opportunity with on road cars where a well versed very good racer would say "here's my radio try this out, this is what a well setup car drives like". I've always had an on road car that I used it's manufacturer's manual to get it box stock then made adjustments to try and get it to do what I thought would help it's handling.
The first thing for Trans Am racing (and pretty much any other class) is that it must be easy to drive. This means that it has linear steering, and can be pushed pretty hard and not do anything weird. These things are a must when trying to work your way through other cars and to battle for position. It is good to have a car that is smooth in its response, but not lazy either. Transitional handling is important, and the car should respond well to steering input (you don't feel like you're waiting on the car). You want the car to turn into the corner well, and then have the front and rear of the car work together so the car can rotate nicely about each corner. Too much rotation is hard to drive and results in a loss of corner speed. Too little rotation causes a plowing effect and results in a loss of corner speed because you'll have to let off the throttle too much to get it to make the corner.

Really what it comes down to is that you want the car to be predictable an to have just enough steering to make the tightest corner on the track correctly.

Again, this is all my opinion, and some people may disagree with it.
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Old 04-14-2008, 02:17 AM
  #806  
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A friend of mine requested a Camaro template, so I thought I'd share it with everyone. Enjoy!
Attached Thumbnails U.S. Vintage Trans-Am Racing-camaro.jpg  
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Old 04-14-2008, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by chicagokenji
I didn't chase you out. I politely mentioned this was the proper place for you to go on about TA racing and the place where you'd get the best bang for your buck.



Personally , on forums, I like a great heated debate and also enjoy a great rant.

The other thread was about promoting the national race and it would have just been a bad thing to create a large noise to signal ratio there.

Please rock on, oldman.
No offense taken, I got your point and moved to what was deemed the more appropriate thread to discuss my concerns.
But then got attacked and gang-tackled here too. That's all I was saying.

Ultimately, I don't care one way or the other. All I was trying to do was point out a viable option, one intended not only to open up the racing to more participants but also how to keep folks around (as one esteemed poster mentioned) "when the novelty wears off."

no harm, no foul
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Old 04-14-2008, 06:44 AM
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I'll give you guys my take. I totally agree with Brian on "what you want from a car". My problem was finding it.

I was in the top 20 (qualified 17th, finished 14th). I wasn't too far off, but wasn't great, either. I ran a JRXS, and used the "standard rubber tire" setup for it, I believe Josh Numan's? (it's what everyone told me was "the" setup for that car) Mind you, I'm so not a touring car guy. I run 12th scale, oval, offroad- this is my first TC. This setup is a very soft setup, with relatively low roll centers. This worked great at my track (which is 36 x 60, and much tighter than this infield was). But, I felt there was too much roll in the car, and after watching cars like McGreevy's, I knew I needed my car to roll less, steer more, and just be more "efficient" through the turns. It was also just on the verge of traction rolling (I could make it roll). By the way, I had the red #16 Camaro that leaned like an RV in a 100mph corner...

I tried stiffing up the springs overall- just made the roll worse. So, I went back to "stock" and dealt with it, as well as either not doping the tires or just doping the inside half of the front, and a sliver of the rear. I never did add glue to the sidewalls (but thought of it- just thought it would be deemed illegal)

In hindsight, I'm thinking raise up the roll centers a little more, and start there? Agree? Disagree?
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Old 04-14-2008, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by ToddFalkowski
In hindsight, I'm thinking raise up the roll centers a little more, and start there? Agree? Disagree?
Yes Raising the roll centers will help.....it was good to see you again let us know when you guys are back up and running next fall Im sure the gang will make a trip over.
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Old 04-14-2008, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by ToddFalkowski
I'll give you guys my take. I totally agree with Brian on "what you want from a car". My problem was finding it.

I was in the top 20 (qualified 17th, finished 14th). I wasn't too far off, but wasn't great, either. I ran a JRXS, and used the "standard rubber tire" setup for it, I believe Josh Numan's? (it's what everyone told me was "the" setup for that car) Mind you, I'm so not a touring car guy. I run 12th scale, oval, offroad- this is my first TC. This setup is a very soft setup, with relatively low roll centers. This worked great at my track (which is 36 x 60, and much tighter than this infield was). But, I felt there was too much roll in the car, and after watching cars like McGreevy's, I knew I needed my car to roll less, steer more, and just be more "efficient" through the turns. It was also just on the verge of traction rolling (I could make it roll). By the way, I had the red #16 Camaro that leaned like an RV in a 100mph corner...

I tried stiffing up the springs overall- just made the roll worse. So, I went back to "stock" and dealt with it, as well as either not doping the tires or just doping the inside half of the front, and a sliver of the rear. I never did add glue to the sidewalls (but thought of it- just thought it would be deemed illegal)

In hindsight, I'm thinking raise up the roll centers a little more, and start there? Agree? Disagree?
Raising the roll centers up could definitely help. But that's very car dependent. For instance, I was running the lowest roll centers possible on my car...that's just how it worked best. One thing that I observed looking at some cars in the pits was that I think most people ran too much rear toe. This not only will make the car scrub speed, but will make it initiate hard into the corner and push coming out (this could cause traction rolling, as well).

Yeah, if you have a traction roll problem, stiffening the car is not the way to go. It'll just make your car react faster and put more force into the tires. Changing the rate at which the car rolls is usually the best way to fix it.
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