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Old 04-13-2008, 06:35 PM   #781
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Thanks for the info to find pics. Who is Mike on these forums? I wouldnt mind getting one of those sheets
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Old 04-13-2008, 06:51 PM   #782
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Wallstreet. Or as he will be forever now known as, Mikey Wallnuts.
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Old 04-13-2008, 07:00 PM   #783
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Thanks
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Old 04-13-2008, 07:06 PM   #784
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billjacobs View Post
Since all of the tires in trans-am are the same, the next impact on handling is suspension setup
Just a quick chime in. I tested and tuned 4 total TA cars for the big race weeks leading up to the race. Just so people know who might be following these posts for tech info....just slapping the specified TA tires on the chassis isn't where you stop with tires before moving on to other tuning options.

Here's what I found out with the tires:

New out of the box they need to be sanded slightly or have quite a few runs before they "stabilize"

Keep your tires clean for every run.

Choice of traction compound makes a big difference on carpet or concrete.

How you apply the compound makes a big difference.

Camber can have drastic effects for anyone who is an average racer and above. Same with toe-in.

A little bit of CA of the sidewalls can be very helpful if you are expereincing traction rolling issues.

My point:

After slapping on TA tires go thru the above checklist and make changes to those points first before you move to chassis or suspension changes to adjust handling because the above items can drastically effect handling on carpet and concrete surfaced tracks.
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Old 04-13-2008, 07:46 PM   #785
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagokenji View Post
Just a quick chime in. I tested and tuned 4 total TA cars for the big race weeks leading up to the race. Just so people know who might be following these posts for tech info....just slapping the specified TA tires on the chassis isn't where you stop with tires before moving on to other tuning options.

Here's what I found out with the tires:

New out of the box they need to be sanded slightly or have quite a few runs before they "stabilize"

Keep your tires clean for every run.

Choice of traction compound makes a big difference on carpet or concrete.

How you apply the compound makes a big difference.

Camber can have drastic effects for anyone who is an average racer and above. Same with toe-in.

A little bit of CA of the sidewalls can be very helpful if you are expereincing traction rolling issues.

My point:

After slapping on TA tires go thru the above checklist and make changes to those points first before you move to chassis or suspension changes to adjust handling because the above items can drastically effect handling on carpet and concrete surfaced tracks.
Per the rules:
Grinding of tire tread is NOT permitted. Sanding of mold seam to remove seam is allowed. HPI Vintage Slicks are not allowed. Tire traction compounds are at the discretion of the track. No other altering, changing or softening of the tire is allowed."

Glueing the sidewalls is a known thing for HIGH GRIP surfaces typically seen at large events (like the Novak Race, Vegas, etc..). I dont think anyone in the top 20 had their sidewalls glued yesterday.

So I would move onto your statement about working on the suspension before thinking about wrecking a set of tires by smearing glue on them. A smooth driving hand will also help tremendously.
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Old 04-13-2008, 08:09 PM   #786
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Chicago,

Can you share some tips tire/chassis setup that you have uncovered setting up these cars? A few of us that run at a local parking lot track in San Diego, CA are going to exhibition this class at our next race, and it would be nice to look like we know what we are doing and not have to go through unnecessary growing pains if the lessons have already been learned. Any help you can give would be greatly appreciated.

Majic

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagokenji View Post
Just a quick chime in. I tested and tuned 4 total TA cars for the big race weeks leading up to the race. Just so people know who might be following these posts for tech info....just slapping the specified TA tires on the chassis isn't where you stop with tires before moving on to other tuning options.

Here's what I found out with the tires:

New out of the box they need to be sanded slightly or have quite a few runs before they "stabilize"

Keep your tires clean for every run.

Choice of traction compound makes a big difference on carpet or concrete.

How you apply the compound makes a big difference.

Camber can have drastic effects for anyone who is an average racer and above. Same with toe-in.

A little bit of CA of the sidewalls can be very helpful if you are expereincing traction rolling issues.

My point:

After slapping on TA tires go thru the above checklist and make changes to those points first before you move to chassis or suspension changes to adjust handling because the above items can drastically effect handling on carpet and concrete surfaced tracks.
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Old 04-13-2008, 08:17 PM   #787
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g12314,

How were car setup (chassis/suspension wise) as compared to how a 27t/13.5 car w/ 6 cell may be setup?

Maybe the clubs that are running the TA class on a consistent basis can share some setup sheets for the various surface types/cars that are running?


Quote:
Originally Posted by g12314 View Post
Per the rules:
Grinding of tire tread is NOT permitted. Sanding of mold seam to remove seam is allowed. HPI Vintage Slicks are not allowed. Tire traction compounds are at the discretion of the track. No other altering, changing or softening of the tire is allowed."

Glueing the sidewalls is a known thing for HIGH GRIP surfaces typically seen at large events (like the Novak Race, Vegas, etc..). I dont think anyone in the top 20 had their sidewalls glued yesterday.

So I would move onto your statement about working on the suspension before thinking about wrecking a set of tires by smearing glue on them. A smooth driving hand will also help tremendously.
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Old 04-13-2008, 08:49 PM   #788
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g12314 View Post
Glueing the sidewalls is a known thing for HIGH GRIP surfaces typically seen at large events (like the Novak Race, Vegas, etc..). I dont think anyone in the top 20 had their sidewalls glued yesterday.
I came to the race with my sidewalls glued and having done a couple other things done to cope with high traction... My first practice pack of the day resulted in me traction rolling at the end of the straight on the second lap and tearing my front end apart I changed a few things to hopefully deal with the traction before my first race and it didn't work and I ended up on my roof about 10 times even with letting up more in places that I wouldn't normally have to. Second race, more changes to the suspension and the same result. Third race, more changes and more traction rolls. By the fourth race I said screw it and actually glued a tread on the outside of my rear tires and on the inside and outside of my front tires. The fourth race was a little rough since I went out with glued treads and no tire dressing, but I was just happy to not be traction rolling. Now, I'm certainly not great with setting up TC's, but at the same time I'm not a total idiot. If there was more time between some of my races or I had a car where changing things like roll center would have been easier I might have licked it without desperate measures.

In short, not only was there someone with glued sidewalls in the top 20, there was someone with glued treads in the top 20
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Old 04-13-2008, 08:55 PM   #789
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Ike,

What kind of car were you running?
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Old 04-13-2008, 09:12 PM   #790
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian McGreevy View Post
Ike,

What kind of car were you running?
An older RDX, by the way, thanks again for the blade
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Old 04-13-2008, 09:28 PM   #791
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g12314 View Post
Per the rules:
Grinding of tire tread is NOT permitted. Sanding of mold seam to remove seam is allowed. HPI Vintage Slicks are not allowed. Tire traction compounds are at the discretion of the track. No other altering, changing or softening of the tire is allowed."
Let me rephrase.....don't expect to take a set of tires out the package immediately slap them onto a chassis and expect them to hook up as well they can. Take the bead off the tires and run the tires a whole bunch before you think it's something other than tires that causing a problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by g12314 View Post
Glueing the sidewalls is a known thing for HIGH GRIP surfaces typically seen at large events (like the Novak Race, Vegas, etc..). I dont think anyone in the top 20 had their sidewalls glued yesterday.
Another rephrase: If you are an average racer and are in the middle of a race day where there's lot's of traffic on the carpet you are racing at throughout the day and as the day progresses the traction really comes up causing you traction roll that you didn't experience earlier in the day and you aren't an experienced chassis tuner and also don't have enough time to take a stab in the dark on a chassis change that might help and might not a simple smear of CA on your sidewalls can many times take that traction roll out.[/QUOTE]

Quote:
Originally Posted by g12314 View Post
So I would move onto your statement about working on the suspension before thinking about wrecking a set of tires by smearing glue on them. A smooth driving hand will also help tremendously.
Gotcha.

Are you telling me to STFU when you correct my posts?
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Old 04-13-2008, 09:48 PM   #792
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Quote:
Originally Posted by majicman View Post
Chicago,

Can you share some tips tire/chassis setup that you have uncovered setting up these cars? A few of us that run at a local parking lot track in San Diego,
So you know I'm not an upper end racer finishing in the top 10 percent of any large on road racing events other than club races. I'm a dad who trys to keep a bunch of cars for my kids and friends running each week for club racing so we can be competitive. We've been racing TA for a few months now on an indoor concrete surface. We don't usually race on carpet like the majority of people who have posted to this thread so far. I'm not an experienced on road chassis tuner. I also expect to have to make minor changes to our current setups because we are moving from the indoor concrete to outdoor asphalt in the next few weeks.

I took the advice of better racers when we first set the cars up for the concrete. Start with your chassis' asphalt setup sheet.

Currently running on concrete, I'm running 40 weight oil all the way around, soft springs in the back and a medium stiff up front. I removed all sway bars. For new tires out the package I ran them on rougher concrete surface until the bead in the center of the tire disappeared. For our older Xrays a neg5 camber in the rear works great, with 0 in the front. When I used -1.5 like I might witha CS27 I found oversteer to be a problem with all our cars. From my exprerience on the concrete these tires like almost all their surface on the ground. I also don't run any toe-in on our fronts. For tire sauce I use Paragon. I clean the tires after each race with motor spray and/or Goo Gone. Aboout ten minutes before a run or race I fully sauce the rears and just 1/4 inch on the fronts. I gently wipe the tires off and let them sit. I found if I put the sauce on just a few minutes before a race and then ran I'd have inconsistent traction throughout race time. The extra time to cure seemed to not make that happen. We run a 5mm ride height.

Currently I have lots of tread left on my tires. There's about 50 runs on the concrete on them plus about 35 runs on Ozite. I generally don't make my car have much push that might be a factor alongside the factor that with 4 cells and a stock motor these cars aren't going much past 23MPH.

Last edited by chicagokenji; 04-13-2008 at 09:59 PM.
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Old 04-13-2008, 10:07 PM   #793
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ike View Post
I came to the race with my sidewalls glued and having done a couple other things done to cope with high traction... My first practice pack of the day resulted in me traction rolling at the end of the straight on the second lap and tearing my front end apart I changed a few things to hopefully deal with the traction before my first race and it didn't work and I ended up on my roof about 10 times even with letting up more in places that I wouldn't normally have to. Second race, more changes to the suspension and the same result. Third race, more changes and more traction rolls. By the fourth race I said screw it and actually glued a tread on the outside of my rear tires and on the inside and outside of my front tires. The fourth race was a little rough since I went out with glued treads and no tire dressing, but I was just happy to not be traction rolling. Now, I'm certainly not great with setting up TC's, but at the same time I'm not a total idiot. If there was more time between some of my races or I had a car where changing things like roll center would have been easier I might have licked it without desperate measures.

In short, not only was there someone with glued sidewalls in the top 20, there was someone with glued treads in the top 20
Ike,

I didnt mean to offend you, or anyone else. Just stated that you should work on the setup before glueing the tire, which it sounds like you did.

Kenji posted a list of things to do to tires BEFORE working on the setup, which in my opinion was incorrect. I didnt want to see a bunch of tires get glued by newer racers potentially reading this thread for setup information.

Jimmy.
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Old 04-13-2008, 10:18 PM   #794
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Originally Posted by g12314 View Post
Kenji posted a list of things to do to tires BEFORE working on the setup, which in my opinion was incorrect. I didnt want to see a bunch of tires get glued by newer racers potentially reading this thread for setup information.
OK, fair enough. That's sound advice. thanks.
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Old 04-13-2008, 10:24 PM   #795
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagokenji View Post
Let me rephrase.....don't expect to take a set of tires out the package immediately slap them onto a chassis and expect them to hook up as well they can. Take the bead off the tires and run the tires a whole bunch before you think it's something other than tires that causing a problem.



Another rephrase: If you are an average racer and are in the middle of a race day where there's lot's of traffic on the carpet you are racing at throughout the day and as the day progresses the traction really comes up causing you traction roll that you didn't experience earlier in the day and you aren't an experienced chassis tuner and also don't have enough time to take a stab in the dark on a chassis change that might help and might not a simple smear of CA on your sidewalls can many times take that traction roll out.


Gotcha.

Are you telling me to STFU when you correct my posts?[/QUOTE]

Kenji,
I didnt see anything in my post to state that, and I dont know why you would draw such conclusions. You have a personal issue with me, fine, send it in a PM but dont expect a response.

This T/A thread seems to be close to turning into a war zone as of late. I dont want to add any more ammo to it, so I'm gonna sign off and go play with toy cars.

Jimmy.
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