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Old 04-13-2008, 07:28 AM   #766
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I can see some of Rob's argument...

This class as initially designed by Trackside and our club (and both without knowledge of the other) was INTENTIONALLY and CAREFULLY designed to create a completely different driving experience to 1/10 TC. With 4-cells and either stock (Sportsman) or 19-T (Pro) motors on the spec rubber tires this was readily accomplished. Using the Stock motors (which USVTR originally VEHEMENTLY embraced) it also created a VERY newbie-friendly venue where the reduced speeds almost eliminated car damage--a welcome alternative to the general carnage in TC while they learned the basics of car control.

This is NOT to say vaguely similar rules hadn't been created elsewhere, just that two groups of very experienced RC racers developed an almost identical set of rules in two geographically remote locations.

It also created a home (here) where old tub-style TC3's were VERY competitive with the (then) latest X-ray T2007 because we set a minimum weight that brought the old cars back into the hunt. Again, done very deliberately after a GREAT deal of thought and experimentation by several folks with a lot of years of RC experience who, like Rob, have seen a lot of poorly defined (i.e. NOT a clearly different driving experience) come and go.

Unfortunately, the "evolution" of USVTR has rapidly made the Vintage TA cars much more resemble the current TC cars. Elimination of weight almost guaranteed it, and the search to "make 'em faster" for outdoor racing pretty much was the nail in the coffin. With a lipo (even with "high" number bl motors) they become MUCH faster than the class had intended and move perilously close to TC speeds. That failure to maintain a TRULY unique driving experience will be, I'm afraid, the classes downfall once the novelty wears off--they have become TC's with a different body and no aero. The lack of aero also makes them harder to drive in higher-speed configuration (ala "outdoor spec") so how long until groups start allowing wings?

BUT, Rob, you seem to think that USVTR is in some way stopping you from racing pan cars with TA bodies, or any other darn thing you want AND THAT IS SIMPLY NOT THE CASE. The Vintage TA movement was started at the grass-roots level--guys decided on a spec, built cars "on spec", and raced 'em. You can do exactly the same thing at your race venue. Hell, call it "Pans Am". The simple fact is that pan cars and AWD TC chassis will NEVER see equivalence (much to your point ealier that there is no real equivalence between brushed and brushless motors) so why knock anyone out trying. It would be a separate class, USVTR isn't interested in creating the class, so the door is WIDE open for you to do so. Why go on and on like a broken record?
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Old 04-13-2008, 07:52 AM   #767
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Originally Posted by ApexSpeed View Post
Congrats to the 65+ racers of all levels and experiences to competed and had fun this weekend. I already have the gears turning for next year's event.
Doug - any chances of looking into a location that can handle more racers?

Since it seemed that your 65 spots sold out pretty quick and that's not counting whatever they were able to accept as walk-ins

So when can we see the results and stuff??
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Old 04-13-2008, 07:57 AM   #768
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I want to see some PICTURES!!!
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Old 04-13-2008, 08:01 AM   #769
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Originally Posted by k_bojar View Post
Doug - any chances of looking into a location that can handle more racers?

Since it seemed that your 65 spots sold out pretty quick and that's not counting whatever they were able to accept as walk-ins

So when can we see the results and stuff??


I already have a lot of ideas for the coming 12 months of the USVTA, and all options will be explored. It was a tight fit this weekend with 65 in there, but we could have handled our max of 75 without much more stress.

Right now, I need a "break" of a different kind.



Concours d'Elegance: Rick Vessel
He molded a new nose insert for the HPI Camaro body that transformed the car into a '68 Pontiac Trans Am in the original Jerry Titus #26 colors. The battery-powered engine sounds effects rigged into the car (that he raced all day) put it WAY over the top.

Longest Haul Award: Paul Daily (thanks for making the trip)

Tough Luck Award (winner of a new Cyclone kit): Andrew Steinbacher.


Top 10 Overall

(1) Lee Passehl (Trackside)
(2) Brian McGreevy (The Track)
(3) Brian Jucha (The Track)
(4) Ryan Pratl (The Track)
(5) John Ermer (Trackside)
(6) Ken Pepe (The Track)
(7) Rick Vessell (unaffiliated)
(8) Kevin Kane (The Track)
(9) Jimmy Stegen (The Track)
(10) Rich Murphy (The Track)


50 Lap "Super Main" Finish
The 20-car Super Main was run "backwards" as well as a minor track change.

(1) Brian McGreevy
(2) Ryan Pratl
(3) John Ermer
(4) Lee Passehl
(5) Kevin Kane
(6) Ken Pepe
(7) Brian Jucha
(8) Collin Cocores
(9) Peter Eichler
(10) Rich Murphy
(11) Matt Sunderladge
(12) Nick Bartolone
(13) Jacob Kent
(14) Todd Falkowski
(15) Rick Vessell
(16) Rutt Sirimit
(17) Eugene Sia
(18) Jimmy Stegen
(19) Dave Arnold
(20) Brian Sakowski
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Old 04-13-2008, 08:03 AM   #770
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I want to see some PICTURES!!!
There were a LOT of big time cameras flashing all day, as well as video. I think everyone needs time to detox and I need to hobble to my truck to get my camera out for my shots. There will definitely be no shortage pf photos.
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Old 04-13-2008, 09:22 AM   #771
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Originally Posted by ApexSpeed View Post
It's a touring car-based class.

Strong, simple and well thought-out. Not buggy chassis, not 2wd, not 1/12th scale cars, not pan cars. It will always be a touring car based class. That's all—end of argument, Rob.

If you want a new pan car class, go find the Pro10 class thread here on this very forum. It's pretty simple, really. If you don't approve of this class and the rules, no one is forcing you to read this thread. If you have any comments, criticisms or suggestions for this class, I welcome you to PM them to me directly and stop arguing about things in this thread.



Wait a dadgum second.
First, I was NOT arguing (unless it was with those that so vehemently attacked me with lame, irrational counterpoints to what I was suggesting).
Second, I got chased out of the OTHER thread - btw, that was also discussing YOUR big race (seems silly to have two) - and politely told to air my suggestions in this one. So that's what I did - plain and simple.
I haven't been rude, and I haven't been argumentative, and I never said I disapproved or your organization or the class.
I WAS just trying to point out a potential way for YOUR rebodied - i.e. Vintage - 1/10th onroad racing organization to get new racers and drivers. But I see you've gotten all of them you're interested in getting, and have all but told people "we're full, so don't call us we'll call you."

I really don't care one way or the other.
Just make sure and remember that I TOLD YOU SO when the novelty of your "yet another touring car-based spec class" wears off and you're looking to fill up the fields (or the pits).

And ultimately, I guess what not only baffles and confuses me is your own personal slogan (i.e. sig) “Racers need to spend more of their efforts on promoting and finding more people to race with, rather than a personal quest to form a class that they can win at." Because I don’t care what you think you’re saying, I just know exactly what you’re doing - and it ain’t THAT !!


good luck and good racing to all of you

Last edited by RocketRob40; 04-13-2008 at 11:26 AM.
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Old 04-13-2008, 09:24 AM   #772
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottrik View Post
I can see some of Rob's argument...

This class as initially designed by Trackside and our club (and both without knowledge of the other) was INTENTIONALLY and CAREFULLY designed to create a completely different driving experience to 1/10 TC. With 4-cells and either stock (Sportsman) or 19-T (Pro) motors on the spec rubber tires this was readily accomplished. Using the Stock motors (which USVTR originally VEHEMENTLY embraced) it also created a VERY newbie-friendly venue where the reduced speeds almost eliminated car damage--a welcome alternative to the general carnage in TC while they learned the basics of car control.

This is NOT to say vaguely similar rules hadn't been created elsewhere, just that two groups of very experienced RC racers developed an almost identical set of rules in two geographically remote locations.

It also created a home (here) where old tub-style TC3's were VERY competitive with the (then) latest X-ray T2007 because we set a minimum weight that brought the old cars back into the hunt. Again, done very deliberately after a GREAT deal of thought and experimentation by several folks with a lot of years of RC experience who, like Rob, have seen a lot of poorly defined (i.e. NOT a clearly different driving experience) come and go.

Unfortunately, the "evolution" of USVTR has rapidly made the Vintage TA cars much more resemble the current TC cars. Elimination of weight almost guaranteed it, and the search to "make 'em faster" for outdoor racing pretty much was the nail in the coffin. With a lipo (even with "high" number bl motors) they become MUCH faster than the class had intended and move perilously close to TC speeds. That failure to maintain a TRULY unique driving experience will be, I'm afraid, the classes downfall once the novelty wears off--they have become TC's with a different body and no aero. The lack of aero also makes them harder to drive in higher-speed configuration (ala "outdoor spec") so how long until groups start allowing wings?

BUT, Rob, you seem to think that USVTR is in some way stopping you from racing pan cars with TA bodies, or any other darn thing you want AND THAT IS SIMPLY NOT THE CASE. The Vintage TA movement was started at the grass-roots level--guys decided on a spec, built cars "on spec", and raced 'em. You can do exactly the same thing at your race venue. Hell, call it "Pans Am". The simple fact is that pan cars and AWD TC chassis will NEVER see equivalence (much to your point ealier that there is no real equivalence between brushed and brushless motors) so why knock anyone out trying. It would be a separate class, USVTR isn't interested in creating the class, so the door is WIDE open for you to do so. Why go on and on like a broken record?

on a MUCH lighter note................


Thank you, from the bottom of my heart, for not turning your own reply into an out-ad-out attack on either my manhood or just me personally. Your adult, and well thought out, reply is very appreciated.

I am very aware of where the class as initially formulated, and how it came to be that way. I can appreciate it. At the same time, I was also aware of other tracks that were doing a similar scheme - but instead were using pan cars. And one night I awoke from my sleep and thought - “eureka, if all these boys could put their heads - and their cool-ass looking cars - together, then, hot damn, we’d have something. Something totally new, totally different, and yet diverse enough (two classes - heavy and light) that it could work on a national level.

Yet at the same time it dismays me, considering that the “organization” as it like to call itself, woo-hooo’d about attendance - yet overlooked the fact that that race was dominated (both in attendance and on the track) by one club. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, but it tells me that it’s not a National organization but a local or regional one at best. And that, quite frankly, does not lend itself to growth.

No, I don’t think that the USVTR is stopping me, any track, or anyone else from racing old-school bodies on pan cars. All I was suggesting, since it’s already been done and well discussed other places, was that it was my thought to get everyone together - TC and pan crowds - and instead of having two similar-looking groups that are using entirely different platforms to have them all under the same TransAm umbrella and not two or three different ones. Hell, I’d show up to race two separate classes, and I think other people would too.

Honestly, I wasn’t trying to go on like a broken record. Sorry if it sounded that way, but I’m sure it did when I kept have to respond to the vicious attacks and attempts by people to throw me out of the kitty litter (or sandbox) and under the bus JUST for suggesting something I saw as simple and wider-serving.

thanks again for your honesty, and your well thought out and well written reply.


good racin' to ya
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Old 04-13-2008, 09:44 AM   #773
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RR40, the issue with yet another class is very simple:

At our track we have 3-4 classes show up each week. Several months ago a mini class began to grow at our track (7-8 racers each week.) Then trans-am began to get popular and the majority of the mini drivers switched to trans-am. If 1/10 pan car grows, what do you think will happen?

The problem with almost any new class is that it simply canabolizes drivers from other classes, because most racers at our track only run 1 class. This can be because of cost, time, dedication, etc, but it still the rule rather than the exception.

The biggest gripe that most racers have with r/c is cost, so how do you help anything by continously introducing new classes, and encouraging racers to enter those classes (I say encouraging because nobody is forced to do anything, but if several racers start a new class, others will follow, that's human nature.)

I am longing for the day of a porche spec class with mandated brushless, lipo, premounted slick tires, and porche 911 bodies (specific motor (not wind) but brand, specific battery, specific body, specific tires.) Anyone for making another class?
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Old 04-13-2008, 11:09 AM   #774
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Doug: Thanks for putting together a great event. I had a good time, and look forward to next year- think I'll come back a little smarter next year. Good luck with the break. Was also good seeing many faces I haven't seen in nearly 15 years (or more)...

Oh, and guys- Have the respect to Doug to either let the argument die, or take it to another thread. You have a guy on here busting his tail (and foot ) to get something going in a positive direction in racing, in which we desparately need.
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Old 04-13-2008, 11:35 AM   #775
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Originally Posted by billjacobs View Post
RR40, the issue with yet another class is very simple: At our track we have 3-4 classes show up each week. Several months ago a mini class began to grow at our track (7-8 racers each week.) Then trans-am began to get popular and the majority of the mini drivers switched to trans-am. If 1/10 pan car grows, what do you think will happen?
bill -- I know, seen it happen myself many times.
What you're suggesting is the "class of the day" phenomenon. It's the nature of the hobby -and been that way since way back in the day when Associated released the RC10 and people jumped to dirt from running their 12i's on pavement. So are you saying that the TA class was justified taking away from your track's mini class, and yet doesn't deserve the same treatment or opportunities for the drivers to make up their own minds?
Dilemna for sure -- but the nature of the beast. And thus people either have to force manufacturers to stop bringing out new options, or racers have to resist the urge to change just for the sake of being different.

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Originally Posted by billjacobs View Post
The problem with almost any new class is that it simply canabolizes drivers from other classes, because most racers at our track only run 1 class. This can be because of cost, time, dedication, etc, but it still the rule rather than the exception.
Yes and no. Your track's TA class canibalized the mini class. So was that right or fair, or any different? Of course not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by billjacobs View Post
The biggest gripe that most racers have with r/c is cost, so how do you help anything by continously introducing new classes, and encouraging racers to enter those classes (I say encouraging because nobody is forced to do anything, but if several racers start a new class, others will follow, that's human nature.)
Well I guess this question should have been better addressed by those that introduced the TA class at your track this year.
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Old 04-13-2008, 05:16 PM   #776
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Man the Trans AM Nationals were a blast. Thanks Doug for sparking this fire and keeping it going.....72 pre entries and 65 total showing up was awesome just for 1 class of cars that has just been on the scene for a year or so. When was the last time any class at any race got that many entries and most of the people were local to the midwest. I had a great time and I look forward to going to next years event. Everyone who didnt make the event missed out on one heck of a race.

Here are some pictures from the event taken by Doug before the foot issue happened....I hope you recover quickly.

http://www.rctech.net/forum/showpost...&postcount=259
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Old 04-13-2008, 05:48 PM   #777
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To those arguing about making the TA cars use a pro 10 chassis. Why would you even want to? You have to buy a $300.00 kit to do it, don't you? Or are you all talking about using old 1/10th pan cars. Because I know there are plenty of old tub chassis TC's that can be had with lots of parts for a lot less than a new !/10th pan car.
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Old 04-13-2008, 06:13 PM   #778
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ApexSpeed.. do you know where i can find pictures of true trans am cars so i can get a idea on how to paint my body?
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Old 04-13-2008, 06:26 PM   #779
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ApexSpeed.. do you know where i can find pictures of true trans am cars so i can get a idea on how to paint my body?
There is a post earlier in this thread somewhere with a LOT of good links for vintage race car paint ideas, but if you browse through the Historic Trans Am photo site for a little while, I'm sure you'll get a lot of really good paint schemes to work with.

We may have some of the number/decal sheets remaining after Wallstreet sends out the ones from the race to the racers, but the numbers are very limited (like #65 through #80). If you are interested in one of those sheets, I'd drop Mike a PM and let him know. I'm sure he'd kick you one for a few dinero.


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Old 04-13-2008, 06:33 PM   #780
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ApexSpeed.. do you know where i can find pictures of true trans am cars so i can get a idea on how to paint my body?
Try this...
http://www.trans-amseries.com/
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