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Old 12-22-2009, 08:30 PM   #7021
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Originally Posted by RCFREAK View Post
What was the reasoning of slowing down a 21.5 VTA cars???
Because if you want to run 17.5 speeds on rubber tires you should be running 17.5 rubber TC or RCGT
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Old 12-22-2009, 09:12 PM   #7022
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I do run 17.5 sedan... but proving a point that VTA with real good setup is the goal...not speed. I am still running the original Novak 21.5 SS motors, i didnt even upgrade to newer motors and different motor manufactures..


I have been running VTA for almost 3 years now. Seen the changes, tested all the motor battery combo...Love the class, but more rule changes than actual racers isnt good..Seems like the rules are being tested for the "LOCALS" only.

BTW the speed between 17.5 and 21.5 is clearly different.... cant help it if the lap times with a dialed car was close to a 17.5.

Like i posted, the last race wasnt about horsepower, it was a lot of setup getting the car dialed....i wasnt comparing SPEED with Lap Times!!
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Old 12-22-2009, 09:41 PM   #7023
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+1 regarding that it looks like the rules are been tested in the "LOCALS ONLY"

Don't know why so much trouble with go along with technology, if everyone here is talking about changing to a 25.5 BL, or 1S Lipo, or any other type of combination, that still involve unload some cash... so in my opinion it should be invested to upgrade to an advance ESC... and keep the 21.5 2S lipos
That helps even the new comers to jump into a faster class later on.

Still exist a big difference regarding speed and lap times, at the 2nd leg of the NEGS a VTA car did make laptimes of a TC 17.5, but for the average 17.5 guys.... the fastes 17.5 cars were 1.2 or 1.3 secs faster then the fastes VTA car...
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Old 12-22-2009, 09:44 PM   #7024
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Originally Posted by Tread1 View Post
Because if you want to run 17.5 speeds on rubber tires you should be running 17.5 rubber TC or RCGT

a 21.5 is not even close to a 17.5 in speed...

21.5 racers are not the only ones that use advance timing esc... so everything become faster... the nature of racing
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Old 12-22-2009, 09:50 PM   #7025
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Hope it stays 21.5 2s. I just bought everything and it isn't even installed yet!
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Old 12-22-2009, 10:16 PM   #7026
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I tested 17.5 and 13.5 single cell. 17.5 is going to be just too slow. Maybe it could be ok with the right gear, but now not all the cars are going to be able to get to the gear ratio, which would have to be under 3.0 fdr least. I got about all the gear I had on it and it was just too slow.

13.5 1 cell was probably about right in terms of speed. The car has a lot less rip out of the corner. Down the straight, guys with GTBs were faster by a couple car lengths on a 90x40 layout. This was with a SPX. SPX with the #1 profile (lowest) was even slower. Lap times were .4-.5 off of 21.5 2s times-this is absolute as we had a series race the week before and there were multiple fast guys doing similar times.

25.5 2s is very similar to 13.5 1s. This was surprising to me, but the car does not pull much harder than the 13.5 setup. Laptime was also almost identical with the motor coming off at around 160*F, which is just about the limit of what you want to temp at. There might be a bit more there, but not much without getting the motor too hot. On a larger track/more flowing track, on SPX #1, this combo was closer to a second off the 21.5 time. At higher timing, it came back to about .4 off. This was also confirmed by a second racer a week later who is in the top 2 racers in my area for trans am.

The biggest difference with 13.5 1s or 25.5 2s is is that the car becomes an E-Z driver. You can just bang the wheel around and the car clicks off laps. This is not the case currently if you want to be fast imho. I know the better drivers can live with that but that is not the point of this class. We want every driver to be able to take the car to it's limit With the current setup we are probably approaching the limits of the tires and bodies. I have driven a 2s 13.5 TA car, which is out of control fun but a huge handful. Like Greg, I have begun to see the tires get eaten up much faster, especially on asphalt.

The slower cars are much like what we had at the beginning. This past summer, one of the guys out here who is a good driver had a 27t/4cell car and i checked his laps at the end of the day compared to the top guys. He was right about .5 off of them on average. That is why I have been trying 25.5 and 13.5/1s.
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Old 12-22-2009, 11:16 PM   #7027
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Sharpe View Post
At the speeds I'm running, tires last about 3 race days and the lap times are exactly the same as pre-ESC-war 17.5 TC lap times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarbonJoe View Post
A 21.5 VTA car shouldn't be running similar lap times to 17.5 rubber TCs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tread1 View Post
Because if you want to run 17.5 speeds on rubber tires you should be running 17.5 rubber TC or RCGT
Quote:
Originally Posted by RCFREAK View Post
BTW the speed between 17.5 and 21.5 is clearly different....
Quote:
Originally Posted by RC-ProSpeed View Post
Still exist a big difference regarding speed and lap times, at the 2nd leg of the NEGS a VTA car did make laptimes of a TC 17.5, but for the average 17.5 guys.... the fastes 17.5 cars were 1.2 or 1.3 secs faster then the fastes VTA car...
Quote:
Originally Posted by RC-ProSpeed View Post
a 21.5 is not even close to a 17.5 in speed...
21.5 racers are not the only ones that use advance timing esc... so everything become faster... the nature of racing
Just to make sure we're all on the same page here, I've quoted everyone....and we are on the same page, just that a few of us read too quickly.

21.5 VTA has progressed to the point of being as fast as 17.5 was LAST SEASON, pre-ESC-war. VTA worked great as a slower class, where the creme still rose to the top, but didn't decimate the bottom half of the A-main.
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Old 12-22-2009, 11:19 PM   #7028
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We use weight penalties at our track with decent results. It works well enough that some guys sandbag at the beginning of the season.

Would a little bit of slowdown help = sure.

The timing advance speedo advantage has limits. Just drop the fdr down further for those speedos on large tracks.

GTB, Havoc, etc run 5.0 Tekin, Kenetic, etc ???? 6.-?

We went to a 5.0 and when the tekin became worth a few lengths at the end of the straight the track director put in a chicane. Didn't cost anyone anything. Now my tekin advantage is 1 length at the end of the straight, and only if someone isn't trying to get a fender under me at the time.


And when guys get too "fast" the race director inverts the start.

Our VTA class is already our "pro spec" class. We have TCS Mini class for the true "spec" experience. Only problem that class has is some of the fastest drivers run it for fun and then discourage the hobby level guys when they are a second a lap slower.
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Old 12-22-2009, 11:33 PM   #7029
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Originally Posted by robk View Post
I tested 17.5 and 13.5 single cell. 17.5 is going to be just too slow. Maybe it could be ok with the right gear, but now not all the cars are going to be able to get to the gear ratio, which would have to be under 3.0 fdr least. I got about all the gear I had on it and it was just too slow.

13.5 1 cell was probably about right in terms of speed. The car has a lot less rip out of the corner. Down the straight, guys with GTBs were faster by a couple car lengths on a 90x40 layout. This was with a SPX. SPX with the #1 profile (lowest) was even slower. Lap times were .4-.5 off of 21.5 2s times-this is absolute as we had a series race the week before and there were multiple fast guys doing similar times.

25.5 2s is very similar to 13.5 1s. This was surprising to me, but the car does not pull much harder than the 13.5 setup. Laptime was also almost identical with the motor coming off at around 160*F, which is just about the limit of what you want to temp at. There might be a bit more there, but not much without getting the motor too hot. On a larger track/more flowing track, on SPX #1, this combo was closer to a second off the 21.5 time. At higher timing, it came back to about .4 off. This was also confirmed by a second racer a week later who is in the top 2 racers in my area for trans am.

The biggest difference with 13.5 1s or 25.5 2s is is that the car becomes an E-Z driver. You can just bang the wheel around and the car clicks off laps. This is not the case currently if you want to be fast imho. I know the better drivers can live with that but that is not the point of this class. We want every driver to be able to take the car to it's limit With the current setup we are probably approaching the limits of the tires and bodies. I have driven a 2s 13.5 TA car, which is out of control fun but a huge handful. Like Greg, I have begun to see the tires get eaten up much faster, especially on asphalt.

The slower cars are much like what we had at the beginning. This past summer, one of the guys out here who is a good driver had a 27t/4cell car and i checked his laps at the end of the day compared to the top guys. He was right about .5 off of them on average. That is why I have been trying 25.5 and 13.5/1s.
Rob,

What temps are you gearing the 1s car for?
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Old 12-22-2009, 11:47 PM   #7030
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Originally Posted by jasons56 View Post
We use weight penalties at our track with decent results. It works well enough that some guys sandbag at the beginning of the season.

Would a little bit of slowdown help = sure.
I put my buddies car up to 1600 grams just for fun. He went faster
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Old 12-22-2009, 11:49 PM   #7031
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Rob,

What temps are you gearing the 1s car for?
the 13.5 was coming in around 150-160 as well if i remember right. I was running timing in th ESC.
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Old 12-23-2009, 01:51 AM   #7032
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It seems that a lot of tracks are running "house rules". That may work at your track when you always have the same racers show up. But, when holding a big race, when people travel to out of town races, they are immediately at a disadvantage. Some allow "turbo", some don't, some allow slicks, some mandate full tread.

Having a consistent set of rules followed by everyone should be the goal. The guy with the GTB ESC can't really compete against the latest timing boost/turbo ESCs if everything else is the same. A 21.5 VTA car shouldn't be running similar lap times to 17.5 rubber TCs. We shouldn't need to buy 25.5 motors just to get back to the pre timing boost/turbo ESC days.

Just get rid of timing boost and turbo. Nobody is forcing the modern ESC guys to use features that other guys can't. They can always turn those features off or use a different profile. The non timing boost/turbo ESC guys can only buy a new ESC in order to level the playing field. The racing is much closer the slower the cars go.
I agree completely with the no timing advance speedo statement. As of last Sunday I'm done with VTA for this reason. I have a GTB and cannot keep up in the infield or on the straights. Lower gearing and the turbo on the straights by the timing advance speedos and I'm at a disadvantage in both areas. My car handles great and the spx's and Tekin RS's are just motoring me. I just feel it's a waste of money to spend 15 bucks a day to get ran over by a speedo, not setup or driving.

I know it's racing but I saw VTA as a way to stay racing in a weak economy but not now. I need a speedo and a 5000+ mah battery to stay competitve.
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Old 12-23-2009, 02:01 AM   #7033
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lots of info here...wow!

I havent seen a problem with tires yet...most of mine last months...still have the "OG" tires from the beginning...I normally want guys to have tread to keep them from being slicks....and I race almost every weekend and at several tracks this year..asphalt and carpet....

I also think that a simple solution is to just turn off the boost/timming....it wont cost anybody any money and you wont have to worry with extra this and that....not even buying a pinion gear

and another good point is, if we go to a slower option 25.5 or 1s...something will come out to make it faster sooner or later...

and once again most guys running/racing SPX/TEKIN/KO/KINETIC ect...a very small group seem to be running the older tech...at least at the tracks Ive visited...

so is it fair to ask the guys running the older esc's to buy newer ones...or is it just as fair to ask the guys running whats legal to go buy older/less advance esc's....

and just for the record...please quit comparing prices on hook ups and ebay and what somebody else has and looking to dump off....kinda like the 4 cell stuff, that nobody wants...go figure

lets keep the rules like they are, and if your track is upside down with the esc's issue...use the suggestion listed with the rules...or just turn the boost off..

cya and good luck with whatever comes along
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Old 12-23-2009, 03:32 AM   #7034
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out here after 3 race days with lots of practice laps I am starting to see the tread dissappear on the inner edge of my front tires, changed my camber settings and it was better last race. For some reason though these tires needed more prepping than the new set I have, those were basically ready to go out of the box.
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Old 12-23-2009, 04:44 AM   #7035
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKSIDE View Post
lots of info here...wow!

I havent seen a problem with tires yet...most of mine last months...still have the "OG" tires from the beginning...I normally want guys to have tread to keep them from being slicks....and I race almost every weekend and at several tracks this year..asphalt and carpet....

I also think that a simple solution is to just turn off the boost/timming....it wont cost anybody any money and you wont have to worry with extra this and that....not even buying a pinion gear

and another good point is, if we go to a slower option 25.5 or 1s...something will come out to make it faster sooner or later...

and once again most guys running/racing SPX/TEKIN/KO/KINETIC ect...a very small group seem to be running the older tech...at least at the tracks Ive visited...

so is it fair to ask the guys running the older esc's to buy newer ones...or is it just as fair to ask the guys running whats legal to go buy older/less advance esc's....

and just for the record...please quit comparing prices on hook ups and ebay and what somebody else has and looking to dump off....kinda like the 4 cell stuff, that nobody wants...go figure

lets keep the rules like they are, and if your track is upside down with the esc's issue...use the suggestion listed with the rules...or just turn the boost off..

cya and good luck with whatever comes along
+1 on all that

I don't know where you guys race but the places I race everybody still has fun with VTA just the way it is. We all race close, and have a good time, the spectators enjoy watching it and the race director enjoys calling it.

As far as changing the rules or finding a different combo to run for the class thats ridiculous at this stage in the game! Everybody was happy with the class before the timing boost and the turbo feature came along so as it's been mentioned why not make the boost illegal and have the SPX guys run a milder profile at the bigger events and leave the rest be.
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