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Old 12-22-2009, 05:17 PM   #7006
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The larger tracks that I race VTA on could use a bit of speed reduction. The ESC turbo restriction is the cheapest way to slow the cars down, but the TECH crews will need to step up their efforts.
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Old 12-22-2009, 05:36 PM   #7007
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What was the reasoning of slowing down a 21.5 VTA cars??? I forgot...

Btw.. last weekend we had the 2nd leg of the NEGS race, Some Vta drivers got a "KICK" out of running almost the times of the sedan 17.5 drivers... Spectators and supporters werent talking about the horsepower in VTA, they were talkin about how "DIALED" the cars were..... proving its all about setups!!!

Driving the car pretty much FULL THROTTLE IS AWESOME!!!

running single cell lipo cant be the answer..... 1/12th scale stock 17.5 single cell is even boring to watch, unless you are running the "banned" speedos!!! i cant imagine what a 25.5 and single cell is gonna run like....
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Old 12-22-2009, 05:45 PM   #7008
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Probably not quite as fast as this
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Old 12-22-2009, 05:49 PM   #7009
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Originally Posted by RCFREAK View Post
What was the reasoning of slowing down a 21.5 VTA cars??? I forgot...

Btw.. last weekend we had the 2nd leg of the NEGS race, Some Vta drivers got a "KICK" out of running almost the times of the sedan 17.5 drivers... Spectators and supporters werent talking about the horsepower in VTA, they were talkin about how "DIALED" the cars were..... proving its all about setups!!!

Driving the car pretty much FULL THROTTLE IS AWESOME!!!

running single cell lipo cant be the answer..... 1/12th scale stock 17.5 single cell is even boring to watch, unless you are running the "banned" speedos!!! i cant imagine what a 25.5 and single cell is gonna run like....
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Old 12-22-2009, 06:10 PM   #7010
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+1
Dude, your avatar has speed in it..........Watch out!!
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Old 12-22-2009, 06:18 PM   #7011
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I don't believe ANYBODY who has any experience with some of the combos bandied about thus far imagines for a moment that 1s / 25.5 is a legit formula...goes a little TOO far to the slow side. 1s / 21.5 would also be slower than the original 4-cell / 27T formula and would be hard to justify. That said...I guarantee that EITHER of those two formulas would create more TIGHT racing than anyone here has ever experienced, "Radio Shack speeds" or not. If folks could just put the egos aside...check the id at the door...

Original VTA formula was 4-cell / 27T, created a VERY distinct driving experience from TC classes (which is the ONLY way the class will survive over the long haul). Was slow enough and high enough minimum weight (1525g) that obsolete chassis were VERY competitive so, as observed above, no need was felt to legislate newer chassis out.

4-cell / 17.5 was adopted after Doug kind of took over the formula and created USVTA. Originally ran a minimum FDR to keep close to the existing 4-cell / 27T cars. I never saw a 4-cell / 17.5 car run so I can't comment on performance.

THEN all hell broke loose. Folks were in a HURRY to get LiPo into VTA so a VERY poorly judged formula was created, 2s / 21.5 (which most folks didn't have when it was brought out...go figure...didn't "kill the class" either). The original "testers" felt it had performance parity, but nobody who was really paying attention didn't see that it was VISIBLY faster than the existing formulas on any track with a straight shorter than 100-120'. This was before "juiced" esc's were even tried. Now, of course, that horse (juiced esc's) is out of the barn and the speeds have gotten even higher.

We tested non-juiced esc's with 2 brushless formulas alongside a very dialed 4-cell/27T car. The 2s / 21.5 car was right at a second faster per lap than the original-spec car. The other combination tested was a 1s / 13.5 combo that I'd HOPED would be similar to the original (4-cell/27T) spec. Turned out it wasn't. It was only about 2 tenths slower than the 2s / 21.5 car and 7 tenths faster than the original. THIS data is why I think the 1s / 17.5 combo would have the best chance to bring speeds back to what they were originally intended to be.

As far as the folks suggesting trying 1s/17.5 mixed in with the 2s/21.5 cars it'll be a blood-bath. As I said, the 1s/13.5 is slower than the 2s/21.5 so the 1s/17.5 will be even moreso. The 2s/25.5 might be close, but it's almost impossible to compare 2s with 4-cell as there is so much more "punch" out of the turns with so much more voltage. Comparing 2s to 1s even more so as it's fully twice the voltage.

My only concern with the 25.5 if it were to be spec'd is that it really is a "bastard" motor, not used anywhere else. Much as I hate the 2s / 21.5 formula at least the battery is used in every TC class out there and the motor is used in oval so there's a market for it all. Not so for the 25.5...it would remain (probably) a VTA-only spec.

The 17.5 / 1s combo is similar to the 2s / 21.5 in that every pan car class now specs 1s batteries and the 17.5 is probably the most commonly used motor out there with huge followings on-road, off-road and oval so, again, a huge secondary market for the components.
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Old 12-22-2009, 06:21 PM   #7012
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Probably not quite as fast as this
Thats funny stuff!! You even have a driver for the new rule. Are you racing that this week?
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Old 12-22-2009, 06:26 PM   #7013
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Thats funny stuff!! You even have a driver for the new rule. Are you racing that this week?

Yes I am, Got a new Mach Jet all painted up too
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Old 12-22-2009, 06:30 PM   #7014
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Single cell obviously gives us the widest range of speed adjustment thanks to the broad spectrum of motors.

Can you sell the masses on receiver packs or boosters?

Wouldn't the current style of advancing speed controls be even more important? That mess would still need to be addressed I think. Teching by listening for the over rev won't work because I think all of the fast escs are putting timing in much earlier and that lag won't be noticeable. I think you would need a hard list of what's legal.
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Old 12-22-2009, 07:22 PM   #7015
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Originally Posted by RCFREAK View Post
What was the reasoning of slowing down a 21.5 VTA cars??? I forgot...
At the speeds I'm running, tires last about 3 race days and the lap times are exactly the same as pre-ESC-war 17.5 TC lap times. The tires are too expensive to replace that often and the racing sucks since the lap times plummeted. It's always a one or two car slaughter at these speeds (at my 3 tracks), whereas we had 4-5 cars finishing on the same lap back just two years ago.
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Old 12-22-2009, 07:32 PM   #7016
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I don't know if this helps, but this past Sunday I was at the Track practicing with a Cyclone "S" with an old 27T with a touring car body and a six cell nimh. While I was practicing there was a guy with a VTA Camaro with a Novak brushless in some kind of graphite chassis. We raced a little and we were very close in times. He won some laps and I won some laps.

One other observation I raced against some VTA guys this summer with 21.5's and I was running a touring car with a Stinger 20T. When their esc's kicked in on the straight away, they were gone.
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Old 12-22-2009, 07:43 PM   #7017
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At the speeds I'm running, tires last about 3 race days and the lap times are exactly the same as pre-ESC-war 17.5 TC lap times. The tires are too expensive to replace that often and the racing sucks since the lap times plummeted. It's always a one or two car slaughter at these speeds (at my 3 tracks), whereas we had 4-5 cars finishing on the same lap back just two years ago.
What type of surface are you racing on? I don't get that kind of wear on carpet or asphalt. Typically I wear about 3 sets of fronts to 1 set of rears and a set of fronts will last me a month. The way I see it is I've ran the same motor and lipo since I started racing VTA so I won't bitch about replacing tires as I know that's just part of it, i don't expect them to last forever. It's certainly cheaper than the days of motors, batteries AND tires.
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Old 12-22-2009, 07:59 PM   #7018
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Yeah, but the tires I took off my TC4 when I sold it that had run two years with the original 4-cell / 27T spec are still VERY useable--no bald strips or anything front or rear. They've definitely worn, but they're FAR from worn out. These were run on carpet mostly but did 3 demo events on asphalt too. The slower speeds (and not THAT much slower...only talking 1 second on a very average size track) create MUCH less tire wear, MUCH less damage with the inevitable shunts, and MUCH closer racing. Slowing them down to the original (or close to it) speeds is a win win win proposition. Hell, that first set of tires/wheels is the price of a stator assembly. TWO sets of tires/wheels is pretty darn close to a motor. You're saving money left and right versus if you're wearing out a set a month.
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Old 12-22-2009, 08:01 PM   #7019
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It seems that a lot of tracks are running "house rules". That may work at your track when you always have the same racers show up. But, when holding a big race, when people travel to out of town races, they are immediately at a disadvantage. Some allow "turbo", some don't, some allow slicks, some mandate full tread.

Having a consistent set of rules followed by everyone should be the goal. The guy with the GTB ESC can't really compete against the latest timing boost/turbo ESCs if everything else is the same. A 21.5 VTA car shouldn't be running similar lap times to 17.5 rubber TCs. We shouldn't need to buy 25.5 motors just to get back to the pre timing boost/turbo ESC days.

Just get rid of timing boost and turbo. Nobody is forcing the modern ESC guys to use features that other guys can't. They can always turn those features off or use a different profile. The non timing boost/turbo ESC guys can only buy a new ESC in order to level the playing field. The racing is much closer the slower the cars go.
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Old 12-22-2009, 08:28 PM   #7020
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What type of surface are you racing on? I don't get that kind of wear on carpet or asphalt. Typically I wear about 3 sets of fronts to 1 set of rears and a set of fronts will last me a month. The way I see it is I've ran the same motor and lipo since I started racing VTA so I won't bitch about replacing tires as I know that's just part of it, i don't expect them to last forever. It's certainly cheaper than the days of motors, batteries AND tires.
I race on a few different types of asphalt at three different tracks. One of the tracks has fresh asphalt that's a permanent facility. Another track holds races in a parking lot, and the last facility is also a permanent track but it's asphalt is very old. If you're getting a month from fronts, that's not much worse than the wear I'm seeing. However, when we first started racing VTA the tire wear on these same tracks was much better (maybe twice as good). The complaint back then was how long it took for tires to soften up and break in.
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