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Old 12-22-2009, 05:20 AM   #6976
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Originally Posted by Scottrik View Post
I'm with you (VERY with you) on the need to slow the class back down to where it was intended. By your results it looks like the 25.5 may be the way (though it still doesn't get 'em back to where they were) to do it. That way budget-conscious folks can buy a Ballistic 17.5 (or whatever) and buy a 25.5 stator assembly (or vice-versa) and all they're really "invested" in the new spec is a $40 stator. And the simple fact is that if you can't invest $40 (as long as there's PLENTY of warning before the change) you are in the WRONG hobby. I would also point out that by your own admission earlier NONE of these racers in your group but maybe 2 can poor-mouth ("I can't afford that motor..." because you indicate they've all ponied up for "juiced" esc's.
now's here is a little 'flaw' with your investment strategy...

novak doesn't offer a trade-in for a SSPro and get a discounted 21.5 ballastic - actually, there is no trade-in for a SS for a ballastic...so buying the ballastic motor with the 21.5 stator is $80 - then the next $40 for the 25.5 stator...

i do know out of the 20ish vta guys at my track (myself included), there is only 2 max ballastic motors being used...

so its not necessary about being in the wrong hobby - but being sensible at spending money, even if you have a good job spending an additional $120 is not always in the cars especially if you have a perfectly good motor sitting around....

personally, all the yammering about motors and speeds (i do, however, agree that the class needs to slow down) is doing nothing but making this class look like EVERYOTHER spec idea tracks have come up with in the past to make racing 'equal'...I'm hoping its not becoming that
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Old 12-22-2009, 05:30 AM   #6977
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Ultimately I don't think it matters what happens with the rules I think as far as club racing goes they will keep the rules they are running or keep things they way they are because everybody has adapted to it and I know (at least where I race) nobody bitches about going too fast.

I mean you look at the cost associated in picking up a 17.5 and one cell packs that alone will kill the class on a national level but I do think that it will stay strong on the club level just because I think people will still race the old rules for the obvious reasons..
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Old 12-22-2009, 06:37 AM   #6978
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Originally Posted by k_bojar View Post
now's here is a little 'flaw' with your investment strategy...

novak doesn't offer a trade-in for a SSPro and get a discounted 21.5 ballastic - actually, there is no trade-in for a SS for a ballastic...so buying the ballastic motor with the 21.5 stator is $80 - then the next $40 for the 25.5 stator...
No flaw, I just wasn't particularly clear. My intended meaning was that you would be able to purchase a motor that was useful in any number of other classes (i.e. a 13.5 or 17.5) and buy the 25.5 stator thus really only having the $40 irretrievably tied up in the class. And even that, I would guess, Novak will eventually offer a trade-in for the Ballistic motors and stators so it would be a bit less. OR if they purchase a 25.5 Ballistic they're only that same $40 into purchasing another stator should they decide the class isn't for them. Either scenario the stator could be sold. Used stators are already being offered on the sale board and selling either side of $25. I'd expect that to fall a little bit as more become available but I'd be surprised if it fell below $20 on average.

BIG assumption with this line of thinking is that the 25.5 ends up being the way to go, and right now only Rob knows what's going there.

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Ultimately I don't think it matters what happens with the rules I think as far as club racing goes they will keep the rules they are running or keep things they way they are because everybody has adapted to it and I know (at least where I race) nobody bitches about going too fast.

I mean you look at the cost associated in picking up a 17.5 and one cell packs that alone will kill the class on a national level but I do think that it will stay strong on the club level just because I think people will still race the old rules for the obvious reasons..
Your argument about this tremendous cost to go 1s / 17.5 is specious on it's face. 1s batteries, new or used, go for about half what a comparable new or used 2s battery sells for. Used SMC 4000's commonly sell for $20-30 and I watched a large handful of them sell for $10 each when I was in Denver a couple weeks ago. Added bonus: guess how deluxe of a balancer is needed for a 1s pack... That's right, no balancer needed 'cause it's only a single cell. Nothing to balance.

As far as the motor, MOST folks have a 17.5 in their arsenal already...remember, almost ALL classes in RC are held hostage to the folks whining "I can't use it in every other class of car I run". If they don't already have one they're COMMONLY available used for under $50. Or backdate a Ballistic (Novak really are geniuses) brand new for a $40 stator. Throw in one of the cheap Chinese voltage boosters for $10 and you're going.

As far as no one in your club bitching about the speeds you've missed the point, aren't going to get the point, so I'll save my "breath".

btw--LOVE your signature!! I'm pretty sure it's some oddball human nature thing though seemingly wired in reverse to self-preservation instincts we otherwise demonstrate. GOTTA touch it.
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Last edited by Scottrik; 12-22-2009 at 06:49 AM.
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Old 12-22-2009, 07:30 AM   #6979
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Your argument about this tremendous cost to go 1s / 17.5 is specious on it's face. 1s batteries, new or used, go for about half what a comparable new or used 2s battery sells for. Used SMC 4000's commonly sell for $20-30 and I watched a large handful of them sell for $10 each when I was in Denver a couple weeks ago. Added bonus: guess how deluxe of a balancer is needed for a 1s pack... That's right, no balancer needed 'cause it's only a single cell. Nothing to balance.
I can also argue that you can pick up a used Tekin RS all day long for $120, and that I've seen them go for as low as $100 on the boards.

Now with the batteries we're already running 2s lipos, so we already have 2s lipos and for those who actually care to balance lipos I'm sure they already have the "fancy" balancer. I don't balance my batteries and you don't see it on the track. The whole balance theory is full of holes and can be argued all day long (as I'm sure you know). I have run the same Thunderpower pack in my VTA since the 40c Thunderpower became available and still don't have any loss in performance even after countless cycles and no balancing. As far as the cost you can buy them for $50 used and $99 brand new and I think with the life you get out of them they are an exceptional value.

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As far as the motor, MOST folks have a 17.5 in their arsenal already...remember, almost ALL classes in RC are held hostage to the folks whining "I can't use it in every other class of car I run". If they don't already have one they're COMMONLY available used for under $50. Or backdate a Ballistic (Novak really are geniuses) brand new for a $40 stator. Throw in one of the cheap Chinese voltage boosters for $10 and you're going.
Yea but we already have the 21.5 in our car. Those of us that have a 17.5 have it in an RCGT car or run another 17.5 class and if VTA switches to 17.5 you'll never be able unload a used 21.5 to offset the cost of the new 17.5 because 21.5 is only popular with VTA.

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As far as no one in your club bitching about the speeds you've missed the point, aren't going to get the point, so I'll save my "breath".
Oh I get it, It's the whole "spirit of VTA" argument and I've openly expressed my opinion on the slower speed racing in this thread already so i too will choose to save my breath in this post

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btw--LOVE your signature!! I'm pretty sure it's some oddball human nature thing though seemingly wired in reverse to self-preservation instincts we otherwise demonstrate. GOTTA touch it.
Thanks, It's a man thing
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Old 12-22-2009, 07:39 AM   #6980
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alrighty then.

So, as I don't have a LHS that supports RC Racing, who online has the cheapest price for a Novak Ballistic 21.5 motor as well as stators?
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Old 12-22-2009, 07:52 AM   #6981
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Most places are back ordered on the Balistic 21.5, rcboyz on Ebay has a couple left, about $95 to your door through them. Amain has most the stators in stock.
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Old 12-22-2009, 07:56 AM   #6982
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thanks, saw amain has them in stock as far as the motor goes.

As a side note, has anyone used these 21.5 motors in offroad? I am thinking of letting my daughter use the 21.5 for offroad as well since it should be slower and more controllable, this would be a 2wd buggy.
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Old 12-22-2009, 08:09 AM   #6983
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I have read evry post in this thread....ok, so I don't have a life....and for the most part I am jealous. I want to run USVTA really bad, but down here in south Florida the guys always wanted to go faster. The class died because 13.5s are TOO frickin fast for this class, plus the bodies were NOT designed to handle those speeds. I only wish we could find a simple solution.

What about allowing 17.5 with a 1c lipo as well as 21.5 with a 2c lipo and controllong the MAHs of the batteries? My reasoning is this....I tighten up my vintage-style wheels and tires, throw a 1c batt in my 17.5 car, pin down my 68 Camaro body and race VTA. Now I unpin the Camaro, change my wheel/tire combos, pull the 1c, slide in the freshly charged 2c, pin down my Porsche body, and race the RCGT race. Same car, same motor, 2 wheel/tire set ups, 2 batts, 2 bodies, 2 classes.

Am I way off base here?
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Old 12-22-2009, 08:28 AM   #6984
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I was wondering the same thing about the 17.5 1S setup, as from what I have heard from the 4cell 17.5 1/12 guys the 1S 17.5 setup is supposed to be a tick slower than the 4 cell setup, at least, in 1/12 . out here they even went to a 3 cell NIMH setup to get it more equitable.

So at least to me, based on that I would think the 1S setup on 17.5 in VTA may not have an advantage over the 21.5 2S setups or the 4cell 17.5 setups.

I also think I have heard of some places doing VTA with the 1S 17.5 setups.

Maybe for your local racing, you can see about working that out with the rest of the racers and give it a shot and report back what you have seen? I would be interested in seeing how well that works out as I can see those who run 1S lipo in the other onroad classes could really like that.
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Old 12-22-2009, 08:29 AM   #6985
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I have difficulty following/finding all of the comments in this thread that may relate to Novak products....

We offered the 25.5 wound stators for the Ballistics so that racers/series organizers could test them and see if that wind might be useful for certain entry-level events. If there is interest, we can offer both 25.5 SS Pros and 25.5 Ballistics as complete motors.

We can also include the 25.5 SS Pro in our Service Option Program as an "S Code" motor exchange option (currently, there are 21 exchange possibilities--what's one more...)?

The new motors are something that we can implement fairly quickly if the 25.5 wind is acceptable.
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Old 12-22-2009, 08:35 AM   #6986
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Originally Posted by Headshot View Post
I have read evry post in this thread....ok, so I don't have a life....and for the most part I am jealous. I want to run USVTA really bad, but down here in south Florida the guys always wanted to go faster. The class died because 13.5s are TOO frickin fast for this class, plus the bodies were NOT designed to handle those speeds. I only wish we could find a simple solution.
13.5 in VTA!?! Lmao, I bet that was interesting...

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What about allowing 17.5 with a 1c lipo as well as 21.5 with a 2c lipo and controllong the MAHs of the batteries? My reasoning is this....I tighten up my vintage-style wheels and tires, throw a 1c batt in my 17.5 car, pin down my 68 Camaro body and race VTA. Now I unpin the Camaro, change my wheel/tire combos, pull the 1c, slide in the freshly charged 2c, pin down my Porsche body, and race the RCGT race. Same car, same motor, 2 wheel/tire set ups, 2 batts, 2 bodies, 2 classes.

Thats all fine and well but If your classes are stacked as they can be sometime it would slow the show significantly because a tire change isnt that fast and what about saucing the tires and the voltage booster? Not to mention the heat on the motor to go out and run a 5 min heat then a 8 min heat. I mean a track director could work it out so that you could do that but it would be a major pita and I don't think the one cell/ 17.5 speeds would be up to snuff anyway.[/QUOTE]
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Old 12-22-2009, 08:51 AM   #6987
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We still race door to door, the vast majority of us are running the hardware to do so...
Again, utterly missing the point of VTA. This class was started and sold to many as one you can drag out an old chassis or buy a tub cyclone and compete.

Where is it now and where it is heading- just another TC class with a spec motor and tires.

Just in the 1 1/2 I've been following VTA on here, I've seen the change in the newer posters and it's the same attitude you see in TC and I've said before, that attitude is what is killing TC and if continues in VTA will kill it also.
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Old 12-22-2009, 08:52 AM   #6988
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yes



not sure what you are saying with that....

I think the class should be slowed down....but we all have to remember what some of us can afford, doesnt mean everyone can...and I sure Rob and the USVTA take that into thought before changing any rules and such....I dont see ppl buying anything that may change later cause of technology....we have to come with something that will make the class stronger and more popular among National Races.....cause you can change whatever locally...

we are on the right track with the slow down of the cars, and those that think different may need to run RCGT or TC....we just have to work on it locally and then bring our results to the "powers that be" and let them look into what will work for everybody....they might take a different idea from several places and come with one solution...who knows, but I believe the VTA class is strong enough to handle whatever comes its way....

I like the idea of whats going down at the Novak Race in Jan...no boost and 5.2 FDR,....Im going to give that a try as well to see where Im at compared to my normal 4.2 pro 6....might just run my GTB car and not worry with it..lol
Typo, I meant to say "You know that's kind of sad"
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Old 12-22-2009, 08:54 AM   #6989
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How about everyone run by 1 set of rules:
1) vintage body
2) vintage rims and tires
3) working diffs front and rear, no one-ways, spools, etc.
4) novak 21.5 motor with equivalent spec timing (have a chart for timing for different motors)
5) any esc with timing advance turned off (easy to check, hold the car up, peg the throttle, if the revs keeps increasing or a second gear kicks in, disqualify car)
6) min 4.2 fdr
7) any 7.4v lipo
8) 1450g weight limit

Wait a second, these are the usvta rules. If people stop messing with the formula that works, all is ok. VTA is not touring car, if you want to run touring car, run it.

All of the problems have to do with giving a little on the rules. If you don't give on the rules and enforce them, everything will be fine.

Rules are rules, not suggestions. Unfortunately, like much of society, everyone feels they can contribute and that their opinion is important and needs to be heard and evaluated. Well, guess what, too many cooks ruin the dinner. Tracks and race directors need to stop giving in and simply enforce the rules. Everyone doesn't deserve a say, or an award for showing up.
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Old 12-22-2009, 09:09 AM   #6990
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Again, utterly missing the point of VTA. This class was started and sold to many as one you can drag out an old chassis or buy a tub cyclone and compete.

Where is it now and where it is heading- just another TC class with a spec motor and tires.

Just in the 1 1/2 I've been following VTA on here, I've seen the change in the newer posters and it's the same attitude you see in TC and I've said before, that attitude is what is killing TC and if continues in VTA will kill it also.
Then why not spec the whole thing from the jump? Why is it legal to run a $400 chassis? Everything that has happened is within the rules anyway and you can absolutely still put a tub car on the track and still be competitive.

I mean there's 2 types of racers, the ones that do whatever it takes to be competitive and the ones that don't care about winning and just wanna race and have fun. This is not a cheap hobby, PERIOD I don't care what you run it's gonna get in your pocket.

At the end of the day the investment to go a little faster isn't all that much more than going slower. I mean that is the complaint here, right the cost with the newer esc's? (that most of us are already running, btw). I know I don't see too many people that don't run the LRP or the RS is their VTA cars.
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