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Old 11-25-2009, 08:40 PM   #6796
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I started racing VTA because my XRAY FK04, NIMH, 27T, free used body and used wheels/tires was cheap and fun. I am bumping up to a used Havok and Lipo this season. The spirit of VTA to me is to race cheap. There is not a single new part on my car. Yes, I win everytime I race it because I have less than $300 in the whole thing and I come off the driver's stand smiling. I just don't have the win at any cost attitude.

Maybe there should be a maximum straight line footage allowed for track setups. Or maybe a minimum amount of turns.

I know what the limiting factor could be.......

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Old 11-25-2009, 09:37 PM   #6797
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Originally Posted by K.Kincaid View Post
As for myself, I am trilled with the Lipo/ brushless 21.5 combination. It is very low maintenance and allows me to concentrate on chassis set-up and practice. I only need one battery and one motor (and I don't pull either out of than car the whole night!)

Now keep in mind I have been away from the hobby for sometime and back then to be competitive you needed a dyno, motor lathe, battery zapper, 8+ packs of batteries and you were constantly going through brushes, springs, and buying motors to get the last drop of power out of the car.

It seems to me the learning curve for the new racer is less than ever and the cost to compete at the top level of this class is a whole lot less.

Maybe I'm missing something. I guess we could spec a Radio Shack Turbo Hopper, but I'm sure some will be faster than others, but I'm sure the driver will have nothing to do with it.
+1,000,000,000 I couldn't agree more

I did a some testing during the local races Tuesday night. I've ran a GTB in my car (box stock TA05) since November of last year, and if it matters, I run Orion 3800 lipo's and the car is 1494 grams race ready. In practice and during the first round of qualifiying I ran a borrowed LRP SXX set on profile #7 (I started on 5 but ended up at 7 with a little less gear) and set the motor timing and gear ratio accordingly. The car did "feel" faster on the main straight but I wasn't really pulling away from anyone either. I was happy with the set up and after about five 8 minute runs I was pretty confident I maxed it out and it was as fast as it would go. The second round of qualifying I switched back to my GTB, normal gear ratio (around 4.45), and normal motor timing - the car picked up .1 tenth per lap over the SXX . I race at Trackside, it's indoor carpet and I think the main straight is around 110'. So there you have it, I'm not spending my money on a new speedo anytime soon.

Also, I think it's awesome Novak and Tekin are paying attention to our class. It would be great if Novak and Tekin would release a "USVTA" spec speedo with no timing advance at a reasonable price. That would completely level the playing field and theoretically slow the cars down. It could be phased in to next years rules, and a possible list could be made of the older speedos with no timing trickery to be grandfathered in so some people wouldn't even have to buy the new ones. Maybe a "USVTA Approved" spec sticker could be placed on a older speedo in tech at a large event and it must not be tampered with or removed. Weekly club races would have to be based on honor system (and if you would have to cheat...ie - use an illegal speed control...to win a local club race, I really feel sorry for you). All the guys running the hi tech speedos can use them in a different car or sell them off - right now a used Tekin RS is going for around $150 - so you could buy the $60-$100 dollar spec speedo and pocket the $50-$70 to use on parts or practice time. I think the answer is already on the wall.

The United States Touring Car Championships, other wise known as the "Novak Race" is at Trackside January 7th-10th 2010. Last year there were 40+ entries in VTA and it was tied for the largest class. Maybe the guys from Novak could get with Scotty and we could run a Novak supplied spec speedo.....like was done for the Mini's in 2008 with the XBR/17.5's.
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Old 11-25-2009, 11:23 PM   #6798
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Originally Posted by Racer X79 View Post
+1,000,000,000 I couldn't agree more

I did a some testing during the local races Tuesday night. I've ran a GTB in my car (box stock TA05) since November of last year, and if it matters, I run Orion 3800 lipo's and the car is 1494 grams race ready. In practice and during the first round of qualifiying I ran a borrowed LRP SXX set on profile #7 (I started on 5 but ended up at 7 with a little less gear) and set the motor timing and gear ratio accordingly. The car did "feel" faster on the main straight but I wasn't really pulling away from anyone either. I was happy with the set up and after about five 8 minute runs I was pretty confident I maxed it out and it was as fast as it would go. The second round of qualifying I switched back to my GTB, normal gear ratio (around 4.45), and normal motor timing - the car picked up .1 tenth per lap over the SXX . I race at Trackside, it's indoor carpet and I think the main straight is around 110'. So there you have it, I'm not spending my money on a new speedo anytime soon.

Also, I think it's awesome Novak and Tekin are paying attention to our class. It would be great if Novak and Tekin would release a "USVTA" spec speedo with no timing advance at a reasonable price. That would completely level the playing field and theoretically slow the cars down. It could be phased in to next years rules, and a possible list could be made of the older speedos with no timing trickery to be grandfathered in so some people wouldn't even have to buy the new ones. Maybe a "USVTA Approved" spec sticker could be placed on a older speedo in tech at a large event and it must not be tampered with or removed. Weekly club races would have to be based on honor system (and if you would have to cheat...ie - use an illegal speed control...to win a local club race, I really feel sorry for you). All the guys running the hi tech speedos can use them in a different car or sell them off - right now a used Tekin RS is going for around $150 - so you could buy the $60-$100 dollar spec speedo and pocket the $50-$70 to use on parts or practice time. I think the answer is already on the wall.

The United States Touring Car Championships, other wise known as the "Novak Race" is at Trackside January 7th-10th 2010. Last year there were 40+ entries in VTA and it was tied for the largest class. Maybe the guys from Novak could get with Scotty and we could run a Novak supplied spec speedo.....like was done for the Mini's in 2008 with the XBR/17.5's.
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Old 11-26-2009, 06:22 AM   #6799
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Originally Posted by ajyj View Post
I started racing VTA because my XRAY FK04, NIMH, 27T, free used body and used wheels/tires was cheap and fun. I am bumping up to a used Havok and Lipo this season. The spirit of VTA to me is to race cheap. There is not a single new part on my car. Yes, I win everytime I race it because I have less than $300 in the whole thing and I come off the driver's stand smiling. I just don't have the win at any cost attitude.

Maybe there should be a maximum straight line footage allowed for track setups. Or maybe a minimum amount of turns.

I know what the limiting factor could be.......

AM stick radios!
Good Attitude, I rarely even go look at my laps or times because I try to focus on having fun, hobbies shouldn't stress you out and piss you off...

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Originally Posted by Racer X79 View Post
Also, I think it's awesome Novak and Tekin are paying attention to our class. It would be great if Novak and Tekin would release a "USVTA" spec speedo with no timing advance at a reasonable price.
When I plug in my HotWire to my RS I can turn the timing off, it takes about about a minute to plug in and make the change. Making a spec ESC would kill the class deader than hell because 90% of the guys that run the class race with the newer technology and at least half of us are running either the LRP's or the Tekins. I would NEVER run a Novak esc. I have no problem turning my timing advance off on my Tekin I think that if the rules did require a guy to turn the timing off or down that most guys would be willing to accept these changes but I don't think that a spec esc is the answer.
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Old 11-26-2009, 06:51 AM   #6800
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advanced timing is not the enemy ....its rc evolution


try this one more time the new havok pro is aprox $120 ...with tons of adjustments....match that with the new balistic motor witch has adjustable timing upto some serious speeds and high temps ...that combo cost as much as a spx and less then a tekin and is just as fast...ask Darkside,Kincaid,Bblack and anybody else that race's at the thunder dome home of VTA enduro race's
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Old 11-26-2009, 08:28 AM   #6801
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Originally Posted by rkhess View Post
advanced timing is not the enemy ....its rc evolution


try this one more time the new havok pro is aprox $120 ...with tons of adjustments....match that with the new balistic motor witch has adjustable timing upto some serious speeds and high temps ...that combo cost as much as a spx and less then a tekin and is just as fast...ask Darkside,Kincaid,Bblack and anybody else that race's at the thunder dome home of VTA enduro race's
We offer, and have been offering, about 5 "spec" non-timing (affordable) controllers, for less than 120.00:

Havoc 1S
Havoc 2S + (reman)
Havoc 3S
Havoc Pro
GTB (reman)

The Havoc Pro (3.5T motor limit) is basically a GTB with updated on-board programming options.
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Old 11-26-2009, 08:36 AM   #6802
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Nice new log for the fire.

Novak Build a Ballistic

Can get a 25.5 Stator

Or, get ceramic bearings

Or, a 13 or 14 mm tuning rotor

For your 21.5 wind.

New teching nightmare ensues...
Why do you believe that a motor customized with these options would prove a teching problem?

This program simply makes it easier to customize a Ballistic motor from scratch; all these components are offered separately (now) for racers to repair or upgrade their existing Ballistic motors.

Replacement wound stators for the spec wind motors include the installed, colored ring/insert designating the wind; our 13mm tuning rotor has a grooved bevel so that it can be identified without disassembling the motor.
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Old 11-26-2009, 09:45 AM   #6803
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When I plug in my HotWire to my RS I can turn the timing off, it takes about about a minute to plug in and make the change. Making a spec ESC would kill the class deader than hell because 90% of the guys that run the class race with the newer technology and at least half of us are running either the LRP's or the Tekins. I would NEVER run a Novak esc. I have no problem turning my timing advance off on my Tekin I think that if the rules did require a guy to turn the timing off or down that most guys would be willing to accept these changes but I don't think that a spec esc is the answer.
That's why it couldn't be an overnight switch to a spec speedo. It would end up being like the 21.5 motors....everyone knew they were coming and had time to prepare. I belive Novak is more than on board, and Tekin already mentioned it could do a spec speedo for a low cost also. That would give everyone 2 companies to go to so if you're brand loyal or don't like one or the other there is a option. As far as the 90% that are running the new technology......sell them off and make some money if you can't use them. Then buy the spec speedo of your choice. The whole point is to slow the class down a little bit and get away from the timing advance.

Another option might be to just make a "spec inspection" sticker to place on the speedos at the larger races. Go through tech early in the day and have someone look at your speedo profile or plug in your hotwire. After it it shown that you are running the correct profile/software with no timing advance, a "sealed" sticker is placed over your mode/set buttons or your hotwire port and it is not allowed to be tampered with. A random number of cars in the top 10 could then be teched through out the race to make sure everyones on the up and up. The same system works right now with handout tires at big races. Again, local races would have to be based on the honor system. There might be some that try to get away with it, but if there is that big of a speed differance the racers themselfs can be self policing and ask for timing or boost to be turned off.
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Old 11-26-2009, 10:19 AM   #6804
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Reading all this back and forth is what will kill this class, not a spec ESC.

Hobbytown in Frederick MD has a Senior Spec class on Thursday nights.

From what I read it's very popular, if it wasn't for the traffic trying to get there, I would have dropped VTA to run it in a heart beat.

Say what you want about skill, set up etc... At the end of the race everyone whats to know they were beaten by driving not gear. The advantage the timing ESC gives will always skew the answer to that question.

I don't know if it's the new comers to VTA or what, but to me at least, it seems to be losing the principles the class was sold to me on.

All this crying about no way I'll stay if I'm forced to buy a lower ESC is garbage.

All the " You can't use for another class" is crap too. Most of you have more than one car. Be honest, you aren't running mod Sat night going home swapping the motor and entire set up to run VTA on Sunday.


The solution to me is very simple ESC Spec = any non adjustable timing ESC.

I'm sure if this were made a rule for the next racing season, it would be easier to get Novak and Tekin to produce the ESC. Neither are going to do it without having a market first.

I also wouldn't be surprised if this would be the start of something. VTA took the oval 21.5 motor. Many stock classes may adopt the non timing ESC rule
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Old 11-26-2009, 10:23 AM   #6805
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this works just fine for most of us...I dont see a need to change to a spec esc....thats just going to snowball to something else....

next it will be servo...no high speed, or metal gear....you can just run the older servos....cause racer"X" car turns alot faster than mine...and when he hits the wall it doesnt break the servo cause he's got metal gears in it...ect ect ect...

then it will be rx...no spectrum or fasst systems...must be AM radios and rx's..cause his "HIGH END" radio is digital and lets his eletronics react faster than mine...or he doesnt have fequency issues or he doesnt have to put a clothes pin on his antenna....

and while we at it.....chassis must be 10 years old...with no hop-ups..as a matter of fact it must be a HPI chassis...no aluminum upgrades or ceramic bearings....

this can be an endless quest to keep things as even as possible....and its getting dumb as He77....the guys running RCGT or even Spec 17.5 TC rubber on Jaco Blues arent having this issue.....

we are openning doors that need to be shut, and locked....our rules work just fine...and everyone isnt going to be happy with it...but thats all rules...in anything we do...from school,home,work, or even out in public...we always dont like them , but w/o rules this class or most of the things we love and enjoy wouldnt exist...so lets try to just race and get the USVTA to give us some more body options....thats whats giving the other class a lead on us...

REMEMBER.....

Non-Binding Informational Suggestion: Current testing shows that speed controls set to 10 degrees timing advance, with no additional "Boost" or "Turbo" functions, or profile #1 on LRP speed controls are very close in speed. This is a suggestion for those tracks having a disparity between cars equipped with high timing ESCs and those without. *THIS IS NOT A CURRENT RULE*



HAPPY THANKSGIVING

MYRON "BATTMAN" KINNARD
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Old 11-26-2009, 10:47 AM   #6806
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we are openning doors that need to be shut, and locked....our rules work just fine...and everyone isnt going to be happy with it...but thats all rules...in anything we do...from school,home,work, or even out in public...we always dont like them , but w/o rules this class or most of the things we love and enjoy wouldnt exist...so lets try to just race and get the USVTA to give us some more body options....thats whats giving the other class a lead on us...
Exactly!
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Old 11-26-2009, 11:00 AM   #6807
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this works just fine for most of us...I dont see a need to change to a spec esc....thats just going to snowball to something else....

next it will be servo...no high speed, or metal gear....you can just run the older servos....cause racer"X" car turns alot faster than mine...and when he hits the wall it doesnt break the servo cause he's got metal gears in it...ect ect ect...

then it will be rx...no spectrum or fasst systems...must be AM radios and rx's..cause his "HIGH END" radio is digital and lets his eletronics react faster than mine...or he doesnt have fequency issues or he doesnt have to put a clothes pin on his antenna....

and while we at it.....chassis must be 10 years old...with no hop-ups..as a matter of fact it must be a HPI chassis...no aluminum upgrades or ceramic bearings....

this can be an endless quest to keep things as even as possible....and its getting dumb as He77....the guys running RCGT or even Spec 17.5 TC rubber on Jaco Blues arent having this issue.....

we are openning doors that need to be shut, and locked....our rules work just fine...and everyone isnt going to be happy with it...but thats all rules...in anything we do...from school,home,work, or even out in public...we always dont like them , but w/o rules this class or most of the things we love and enjoy wouldnt exist...so lets try to just race and get the USVTA to give us some more body options....thats whats giving the other class a lead on us...

REMEMBER.....

Non-Binding Informational Suggestion: Current testing shows that speed controls set to 10 degrees timing advance, with no additional "Boost" or "Turbo" functions, or profile #1 on LRP speed controls are very close in speed. This is a suggestion for those tracks having a disparity between cars equipped with high timing ESCs and those without. *THIS IS NOT A CURRENT RULE*



HAPPY THANKSGIVING

MYRON "BATTMAN" KINNARD

It will **never** be servos , or the radio, or anything but what is the problem- the driveline.
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Old 11-26-2009, 11:59 AM   #6808
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We would hope not...but ppl always find ways to make things hard...and this esc's is just an example...ppl are having a hard time w/ the fact that the tech jumped quickly and allowed some racers to get an edge....the same can still be said about servos and radios...ppl running older radios"(mag jr..exp) dont respond like the Spectrum or Fasst...so they are loosing in cornering and trottle response....is it that much difference...probably not...but is the esc that much on certain layouts or tracks?....

I thought the 21.5/lipo option was the simple way to eliminate problems...one motor and any esc or lipo(under roar 5000)...and go have fun....that seems to have been the end of quest to better, longer lasting and cheaper equipment over time.....but here comes adv esc's and we back to square 1.. Im beginning to think it will always be something....

all I see is what Ive seen in the last 3 seasons.....ppl are never satisfied..EVER.....Rob we trust in you to do whats best....and will support it..even if we dont agree....thats what loyal racers do...imo

hey Rob here is an idea, you guys have a RCGT class going....why not offer that at the NATS this year as a "PRO ESC" class for ppl using them...that way ppl still using the older/non adv esc can run reg VTA...and also gives us travelers an extra class to run....
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Old 11-26-2009, 12:01 PM   #6809
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It will **never** be servos , or the radio, or anything but what is the problem- the driveline.
I know you guys are trying your best to keep everything even and equal even if it dosn't please everyone but like I said before I don't think a rule change will make people jump ship everyone may not be happy but I bet it will attract more racers. its gonna be alot easier for a new racer to join the class when he is limited to what equiptment instead of being told to run what you wan't as long as its a 21.5 Novak anything else have at it. then he or she starts looking at the price tag and probly dosn't know the diffrence between all the speedos, gets frsturated and wals out the door and eventualy forgets about it. VTA was supposed to be "budget friendly" and a "beginners class" (sort of) now is the perfect time to make those changes. with the economy lets make it "budget friendly" and it will attract people to open there wallets for the ones that wan't to join the class.
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Old 11-26-2009, 01:12 PM   #6810
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Just make a pro class and sportsman class, Pro class run what ever speedo 21.5 motor, sportsman class run spec speedo and 21.5 motor! end it, everyone happy

Everyone has good points but i dont see just 1 manufacture having the soul market on this class.
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