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Old 11-23-2009, 08:59 PM   #6721
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Originally Posted by Racer X79 View Post
I think what's getting lost in this is that on any given race day, the local club racer can go toe to toe with the national level top notch driver and have a chance to win.
Let's not get carried away. It's still all about driving and the cream always rises to the top. Unfortunately because people believe that is why there is the backlash against the class in places. A lot of locals here embraced this class because they were lead to believe they could suddenly compete and win. When better drivers joined the class and they were getting put laps down it was suddenly "they are cheating with better equipment" even though they weren't. By the end of the outdoor season the class was half of what it was because people quit. Either because they weren't winner or got tired of falsely being accused of cheating.
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Old 11-23-2009, 09:13 PM   #6722
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on the flip side our spec Slash class did have the most unique winners throughout the season and really anyone from the middle of the pack to the top had a chance to win. People still learning obviously had no chance but the racing was a lot closer than the VTA racing.
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Old 11-24-2009, 05:03 AM   #6723
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Let's not get carried away. It's still all about driving and the cream always rises to the top. Unfortunately because people believe that is why there is the backlash against the class in places. A lot of locals here embraced this class because they were lead to believe y could suddenly compete and win. When better drivers joined the class and they were getting put laps down it was suddenly "they are cheating with better equipment" even though they weren't. By the end of the outdoor season the class was half of what it was because people quit. Either because they weren't winner or got tired of falsely being accused of cheating.
very true...i cannot tell you how many times i heard this one or that one was cheating....if drivers cannot realize skill will ALWAYS overpower spec'ed rules, then they need to get outta this class...

but the odd thing is - the class at my track grew, even with this talk..

I would love to know HOW a local track is supposed to tech for the speedo BS?? I know my track will not be teching for this absolute bull-crap

do we wanna slow the class back down? yes, but there's gotta be a better way then speedo talk...try raising the freaking gear ratio - like no lower then 6.0 or something crazy high like that....a FDR that high should help minimize the effects/benefits of turbos/boosts - has anyone done testing like that? or has it always been 'get rid of new technology'...

not everyone new driver/BL-convert is going to drop the money on a 'entry-level' novak system because they might 'dual-purpose' their chassis and that would mean 2 different esc setup instead of just 2 motors...so let technology go and mechanically limit speed...

i can think of so many more negative things to say about all the whining, but i think i'll use me head and leave it at this....
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Old 11-24-2009, 10:34 AM   #6724
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do we wanna slow the class back down? yes, but there's gotta be a better way then speedo talk...try raising the freaking gear ratio - like no lower then 6.0 or something crazy high like that....a FDR that high should help minimize the effects/benefits of turbos/boosts - has anyone done testing like that? or has it always been 'get rid of new technology'...
Unfortunately raising the FDR will probably make the "timing" speedos have even more of an advantage. We have been running a 5.0 FDR restriction and it didn't really slow down the lap times but made it a little easier for the less skilled drivers... thus closer racing. However the Tekin guys have the fastest cars and most are running 5.7 or so FDR's. Yes as has been mentioned skill matters and the Tekins don't always win but they definitely have faster cars. I have tried running 6.0 and it is definitely slower... but a GTB at 6.0 vs an RS (with boost and turbo) at 6.0 aren't even close.

Our RD has been working with layouts that take away or at least diminish the benefits of the newer speedos. Our previous layout had a section everyone started to call the Tekin section because of the very noticeable advantage there. His new layout is actually a faster layout but the Tekin drivers are having a hard time finding their advantage other than a few feet. Careful planning of the layout seems to be our best equalizer so far.
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Old 11-24-2009, 10:36 AM   #6725
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any race reports??????????????

I think alot of good points have come out of this healty discussion about VTA,esc,fdr,pro...ect...there are many ways to adjust the slowing the cars down method...lets all do some trail and error and report back to the USVTA..remember you need good info....

Im running my TC5r...box stock setup...LRP SPX on Pro 1, at 5.0 fdr...on a 95x45 med-high carpet track.....average laps around 14.0 as low as 13.3...Im racing against med to fast guys running everything from....009's with SPX to TC3's with GTB's...and Im pretty fast and we stay pretty close when its clean...of course wrecks causes lap times to increase....

I think we will do some 5.5 fdr to 6.0 fdr to see where we compare to the GTB's with a fast guy driving it...maybe do some drag racing down the straight....

what you guys got....
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Old 11-24-2009, 10:41 AM   #6726
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the guys running the ADV ESC's need to runn the high FDR...not the GTB guys...we have about 2-3 guys running non-adv esc's with good skill level...Im going to test my Spx with a 6.0 and see if its closer...
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Old 11-24-2009, 11:56 AM   #6727
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Originally Posted by or8ital View Post
Let's not get carried away. It's still all about driving and the cream always rises to the top. Unfortunately because people believe that is why there is the backlash against the class in places. A lot of locals here embraced this class because they were lead to believe they could suddenly compete and win. When better drivers joined the class and they were getting put laps down it was suddenly "they are cheating with better equipment" even though they weren't. By the end of the outdoor season the class was half of what it was because people quit. Either because they weren't winner or got tired of falsely being accused of cheating.
You kind of prove my point and then you sort of missed my point. The class is all about driving and set up, not about equipment. Any local driver that has good driving skills and set up skills CAN compete and win against any other driver in the country in VTA, it has been proven. It needs to get explained to the lower skilled driver why they're getting beat and where they need to improve and they'll most likely understand.
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Old 11-24-2009, 12:16 PM   #6728
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Can I run a Smokie and the bandits Trans am era body in VTA?The year is right but I don't see it listed in body types.
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Old 11-24-2009, 12:21 PM   #6729
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Originally Posted by Racer X79 View Post
You kind of prove my point and then you sort of missed my point. The class is all about driving and set up, not about equipment. Any local driver that has good driving skills and set up skills CAN compete and win against any other driver in the country in VTA, it has been proven. It needs to get explained to the lower skilled driver why they're getting beat and where they need to improve and they'll most likely understand.
That is true to a point. But everyone that wants this class to succeed has to be honest with themselves.

If your new and everyone has told you that this class is about skill and set up not equipment, then you hit the track and on that straight, which is a drag race- no skill or set up involved- you get blow away you're going to wonder why.

Then you find out that person had a high dollar ESC, you walk away with a feeling that the speech about skill and set up was bullshit and equipment does matter.
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Old 11-24-2009, 12:45 PM   #6730
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Originally Posted by Racer X79 View Post
You kind of prove my point and then you sort of missed my point. The class is all about driving and set up, not about equipment. Any local driver that has good driving skills and set up skills CAN compete and win against any other driver in the country in VTA, it has been proven. It needs to get explained to the lower skilled driver why they're getting beat and where they need to improve and they'll most likely understand.
I think my response was very clear and I meant what I said. People need to stop saying that anyone can compete in this class because its not true. People are lead to believe that and then have hurt feelings when they don't finish in the top 5 still. I can point you to a 20 page long thread on our tracks forum with a bunch of hurt feelings on it. The drivers in VTA finish in the exact same order they do in our TC classes and by about the same distance off. Under the current rules its a racing class just like rubber TC just with different style body and wheels.
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Old 11-24-2009, 12:53 PM   #6731
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Just for the record, I don't mind the current rules. Im one of the fast guys in the class so no difference to me. I do think the "spirit of vta" is hypocritical to the rules though. First, the 3 power plant options are no where close to equal. If you aren't running lipo / BL then you aren't going to come close to winning. On top of that there is so much disparity between the different BL options you must have the latest ESC to win (even without turbo - a tekin with v198 is faster than a havoc). If USVTA wanted to keep the cost of the class down I really think a spec brushed motor with a light FDR is required or you gotta spec the ESC and motor. Otherwise its just 21.5 rubber TC with a spec tire/body.
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Old 11-24-2009, 01:01 PM   #6732
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Then you find out that person had a high dollar ESC, you walk away with a feeling that the speech about skill and set up was bullshit and equipment does matter.
That's exactly where the non-turbo rule comes in. Take away the boost and it's pretty even. I only race on indoor carpet tracks (small to large) so that's where my point of view comes from. All I can say that I've run a GTB from day 1 and I don't see a issue anymore with the new rule in place. Maybe huge outdoor tracks are diffrent, but then the race director needs to step in.
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Old 11-24-2009, 01:23 PM   #6733
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I think my response was very clear and I meant what I said. People need to stop saying that anyone can compete in this class because its not true. People are lead to believe that and then have hurt feelings when they don't finish in the top 5 still. I can point you to a 20 page long thread on our tracks forum with a bunch of hurt feelings on it. The drivers in VTA finish in the exact same order they do in our TC classes and by about the same distance off. Under the current rules its a racing class just like rubber TC just with different style body and wheels.
I will keep saying it because it's true. If you're one of the fast guys then help out a slow guy. That's all there is to it. There is no voodoo to it....you need to practice and learn how a car works to win, plain and simple. Explain to the slower people that instead of spending $250 on a speedo, they buy a $20 dollar XXX Main book (and read it) and a extra couple days a week of practice time. Show them that even if you have "car/stuff x" but it handles good and they can run every lap within .5 tenths for 5 minutes - they can make the A main. All the speed in the world doesn't help when your in the wall waiting for a marshal.
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Old 11-24-2009, 01:45 PM   #6734
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Originally Posted by or8ital View Post
Just for the record, I don't mind the current rules. Im one of the fast guys in the class so no difference to me. I do think the "spirit of vta" is hypocritical to the rules though. First, the 3 power plant options are no where close to equal. If you aren't running lipo / BL then you aren't going to come close to winning. On top of that there is so much disparity between the different BL options you must have the latest ESC to win (even without turbo - a tekin with v198 is faster than a havoc). If USVTA wanted to keep the cost of the class down I really think a spec brushed motor with a light FDR is required or you gotta spec the ESC and motor. Otherwise its just 21.5 rubber TC with a spec tire/body.
Ok the 3 power plants were of equal speed when the 21.5 option first came out. Then racers being racers ran with it and found ways to make it faster. First car setup....then Lipo's got better....now ESC's are making the advantage that much more obvious over the other two.


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Unfortunately raising the FDR will probably make the "timing" speedos have even more of an advantage. We have been running a 5.0 FDR restriction and it didn't really slow down the lap times but made it a little easier for the less skilled drivers... thus closer racing. However the Tekin guys have the fastest cars and most are running 5.7 or so FDR's. Yes as has been mentioned skill matters and the Tekins don't always win but they definitely have faster cars. I have tried running 6.0 and it is definitely slower... but a GTB at 6.0 vs an RS (with boost and turbo) at 6.0 aren't even close.

Our RD has been working with layouts that take away or at least diminish the benefits of the newer speedos. Our previous layout had a section everyone started to call the Tekin section because of the very noticeable advantage there. His new layout is actually a faster layout but the Tekin drivers are having a hard time finding their advantage other than a few feet. Careful planning of the layout seems to be our best equalizer so far.
Paul is right the Higher FDR will make the timing advance ESC's have that much more of an advantage. I know when I ran my car with a higher FDR the car was slower on the straight but was faster in the infield and the lap times stayed the same until I got above 5.5FDR. The other thing to look at when you change the FDR is the motor heat as you are now running the motor full punched more often it will run hotter as its now "undergeared".


Really this whole discussion about ESC's and everything else is just like anything else these days everyone has their own idea and their idea is best idea out there and will talk or type until their fingers fall off. When in reality Rob will try everything first and then do what’s best for the class...like it or not. He’s not going to just pull something out of the air and make a change to the rules unless he sees a real benefit to them for the long run. So if its 25.5 Novak motors with a spec Novak ESC or a 13.5 1 cell lipo or what ever it is it will be tested and sorted out to be the best option for the class.
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Old 11-24-2009, 02:29 PM   #6735
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if u have enough racers ...why not divide into two classes by skill level & equipment?

if u have 10 racers or more u should have two classes so the slow guys actaully feel the "spirit of VTA" every heat and main would be funner for both novice and pro

this coming from a slow guy
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