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Old 08-29-2009, 07:55 AM   #6001
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What roll center works best with these VTA tires. The rubber tires wants to make me want to run high but the carpet surface makes me think low. So right now I am running high in the front and low in the rear. Works good.

Jrxs type R
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Old 08-29-2009, 08:05 AM   #6002
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I have to echo the idea that an FDR limit may not be the way to go.

I'm racing oval with a 1cell/13.5 power option. Guys with the adjustable ESCs gear for a rollout in the 3.3 ball park. Guys without adjustable ESCs can gear above 4.0. So anytime someone asks the question, "What gear you at?" The answer is always, "What ESC are you running?"

We've all found that a good setup equals speed, but you're on your own to figure out the gear ratio you need simply based upon what ESC you have.

As for which ESC is winning the majority of the time it's too early to tell. Just a few people have the class figured out since we're running the new COT bodies. Once everyone gets the setup figured out then we can see if one speedo is dominant over the others.
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Old 08-29-2009, 09:39 AM   #6003
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In a way it is good to see some passion from the racers out there about this class. The real challenge at this point is to put aside pre-conceived notions about what will or won't make this class better for the future. But just how do you go about finding the magic formula when there are so many variables in the mix?

I think as we all look forward, we must make sure that we change for the right reasons. The number one thing that we must do is extensively test whatever power plant options will be available in the future. We must test proposed options on large and small tracks. We must test those options with pro drivers, average joes, and novice racers. We must approach these tests with an open mind and not just stop when we reach a pre-determined result. We must be patient and test for months instead of days or weeks. In short, in our haste to find the perfect answer we shouldn't change a formula that does work for many tracks.

I appreciate that the head of the VTA has already stated (several pages back) that there will be no rule changes this season. All of this discussion will not affect racing this season (or possibly ever). As a racer, I know what to expect and plan my budget accordingly. If we take anything else from rule discussions it should be the fact that each and every local track director has the ability to adjust FDR limits as they see fit to make their local racing better. While the FDR rule didn't address adjustable timing speed controls, I believe the intent of the FDR rule can be applied to this issue until a better solution can be found.
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Old 08-29-2009, 10:19 AM   #6004
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Originally Posted by IndyRC_Racer View Post
In a way it is good to see some passion from the racers out there about this class. The real challenge at this point is to put aside pre-conceived notions about what will or won't make this class better for the future. But just how do you go about finding the magic formula when there are so many variables in the mix?

I think as we all look forward, we must make sure that we change for the right reasons. The number one thing that we must do is extensively test whatever power plant options will be available in the future. We must test proposed options on large and small tracks. We must test those options with pro drivers, average joes, and novice racers. We must approach these tests with an open mind and not just stop when we reach a pre-determined result. We must be patient and test for months instead of days or weeks. In short, in our haste to find the perfect answer we shouldn't change a formula that does work for many tracks.

I appreciate that the head of the VTA has already stated (several pages back) that there will be no rule changes this season. All of this discussion will not affect racing this season (or possibly ever). As a racer, I know what to expect and plan my budget accordingly. If we take anything else from rule discussions it should be the fact that each and every local track director has the ability to adjust FDR limits as they see fit to make their local racing better. While the FDR rule didn't address adjustable timing speed controls, I believe the intent of the FDR rule can be applied to this issue until a better solution can be found.
I have been sitting here and read all this. I agree with with you. If these changes take place that everyone wants then I will not long be running Vintage. I don't see why I have to going out and buy new batteries, etc. I have been running vintage for close to 4 years.
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Old 08-29-2009, 10:21 AM   #6005
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In the end, I'd rather hear about different racers/tracks finding ways to slow this class down without spending any money. I think I'll do my own testing this weekend and see if we can get the local VTA parking lot racers to slow the class down by using a much slower FDR.
In Omaha when we started running 21.5's we decided to run a 5.0 FDR because 4.2 was 1) too fast overall and 2) too fast for the other power options to compete with. Unfortunately 5.0 still wasn't enough. Slowed it down about .2 sec. Not as much as we had hoped so we kinda stopped there. The Tekin guys here are running around a 5.7 FDR to stay fairly even in speed to everyone else. I've ran a 6.0 and really wasn't that far off the pace either. I guess the point is the FDR changes are making enough of a difference that it would be a solution. Now other track surfaces, sizes, and layouts may find this a viable option. Racing still really good though!!

We also implemented a normal 1525 weight limit to take away the weight advantage of say a T2 vs. XXX-S. This really hasn't done much either but at least someone won't get a car because they feel they are losing because of the weight.
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Old 08-29-2009, 11:15 AM   #6006
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In Omaha when we started running 21.5's we decided to run a 5.0 FDR because 4.2 was 1) too fast overall and 2) too fast for the other power options to compete with. Unfortunately 5.0 still wasn't enough. Slowed it down about .2 sec. Not as much as we had hoped so we kinda stopped there. The Tekin guys here are running around a 5.7 FDR to stay fairly even in speed to everyone else. I've ran a 6.0 and really wasn't that far off the pace either. I guess the point is the FDR changes are making enough of a difference that it would be a solution. Now other track surfaces, sizes, and layouts may find this a viable option. Racing still really good though!!

We also implemented a normal 1525 weight limit to take away the weight advantage of say a T2 vs. XXX-S. This really hasn't done much either but at least someone won't get a car because they feel they are losing because of the weight.

This is another thing that I have talked about with Kevin K, who came up with the idea. If it does not prove to be too gigantic of a problem, an FDR for each ESc could be implemented. I worry about keeping up with all the models, but if Tekin was say 6.0, but a Novak was 4.5, this might be a possibility.

How much of a problem is getting the weight on the cars for you guys? A lot of people complain when they have to put a lot of lead on their car.
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Old 08-29-2009, 11:48 AM   #6007
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It amazes me that everybody thinks the point of this is WINNING. It is not. The point is good racing. I want to see cars racing closely. I want to see more cars on the lead lap. Going faster and faster does not do this.
In some areas, this is often the case - The HPI Challenge race in Williamstown, NJ (August, 2009) had 10 cars qualify within 1 lap (out of 28 entries) - the only difference was that we ran 17.5s instead of 21.5s, and were limited to using an HPI chassis for this race. Close racing is still possible, even with the newer technology that allows the cars to go faster. I think the trick to keeping the racing close is sharing information amongst other racers. If the "fast guys" mentor those that aren't up to speed, they'll eventually become competitive.

As far as chassis technology goes, both my HPI Pro 4 and my XRay FK05 remain competitive, even against the faster racers in my region. Fact of the matter is, setup and driving skill will often overcome the latest and greatest technology available. Practice, learn, experiment, and practice some more - that's how you get to the top.
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Old 08-29-2009, 12:05 PM   #6008
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This is another thing that I have talked about with Kevin K, who came up with the idea. If it does not prove to be too gigantic of a problem, an FDR for each ESc could be implemented. I worry about keeping up with all the models, but if Tekin was say 6.0, but a Novak was 4.5, this might be a possibility.

How much of a problem is getting the weight on the cars for you guys? A lot of people complain when they have to put a lot of lead on their car.
The weight rule seems OK - I've seen many cars that were heavier outrun my car that was strategically pared to 1450ish. My vote is to leave the rules as they are, and let evolution take its course. Eventually, those that are dedicated to running this class will have a speedo capable of offering dynamic timing, and the "playing field" will even itself.
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Old 08-29-2009, 12:59 PM   #6009
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RobK:

Hi,

YHPM


Thanks

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Old 08-29-2009, 03:43 PM   #6010
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This is another thing that I have talked about with Kevin K, who came up with the idea. If it does not prove to be too gigantic of a problem, an FDR for each ESc could be implemented. I worry about keeping up with all the models, but if Tekin was say 6.0, but a Novak was 4.5, this might be a possibility.

How much of a problem is getting the weight on the cars for you guys? A lot of people complain when they have to put a lot of lead on their car.
I for 1 like this idea the best. Being a budget racer and paying the bill for my son to race VTA also. I do not want to have to spend more money on new equipment. I would rather keep what we have and put restrictions on it.
say like NO new speedo's aloud, Basically use and control what we all currently have, and spec them. Keep the Novak only motor and put a C limit on the lipos Hind site being 20/20 It should have been Novak 21.5 and either the Havok or GTB speedo and that's all. But hey the horse done left the barn on that one. Just my .02 LOL
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Old 08-29-2009, 04:12 PM   #6011
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Looks like the Thunder RC enduro became the thunder 500 congrats to team Top.
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Old 08-29-2009, 04:35 PM   #6012
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What roll center works best with these VTA tires. The rubber tires wants to make me want to run high but the carpet surface makes me think low. So right now I am running high in the front and low in the rear. Works good.

Jrxs type R
I run a High front low rear on my 17.5 and it works great. TA has more rear traction when the tires come in for you too. Just be patient with them.
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Old 08-29-2009, 06:57 PM   #6013
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How much of a problem is getting the weight on the cars for you guys? A lot of people complain when they have to put a lot of lead on their car.
Up to 1525 not at all... that's what we had to get to for TC anyway. We've added weight "rewards" and guys have gotten their cars up to 1800. When you get up that high you need to get quite creative!

Like I stated it the weight was implemented more so guys didn't think they were at a disadvantage because of a heavy RTR chassis. I don't think it is a viable solution to really slow the cars down. I fact of the three of us that went to the Nats only one took his weight off. I didn't and was totally happy with my results and Tim Ski had the heaviest car there (so the tech said...almost 1600 if I remember correctly) and was in the A.
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Old 08-29-2009, 09:46 PM   #6014
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Old 08-29-2009, 09:56 PM   #6015
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Have you followed "real" racing at all? The "modern era" of motorsports (anything since, say, 1970) there has been nothing BUT efforts to slow cars down in pretty much ALL forms of motorsport.
Yes, they slow down full size racing, but in the name of safety (which I have mixed feelings on). But even though the cars are slowed down, races are still won by large margins. Sure, multi lap wins arent very common anymore in Nascar, Indycar, etc. But at the same time, how often to do see wins like those at the upper echelons of the rc world? That would be a fair comparison. But to compare Nascar to a local club race isn't fair.

The point I was trying to make was that racers are competitors, and competitors want to win. Organizers can regulate batteries, motors, speedcontrols, and gear ratios all you want, but there is always someone out there who finds some new speed secret that makes them faster.

I understand the logic of trying to make competition closer, but just look at the newbies who dump tons of money into their cars to have the top of the line technology, still to only finish in the bottom of the tables. You can give an inexpirienced driver every advantage in the world, but he can still lose to someone with a lifetime of expirience driving a tyco car.

At any level of racing, expirience and knowledge is the best advantage, and unless you slow just the expirienced and knowledged guys down, the results will be the same. Thats where its up to the expirienced guys to teach the newbies how to be fast and bring them up to the higher level.
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