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Old 08-28-2009, 10:39 PM   #5986
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I was just watching Formula 1 Debrief on the the Speed Channel. Massa said in the break to commercial that "racing is about looking foward, not backward."
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Old 08-28-2009, 10:44 PM   #5987
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There ya have it, then. ALL the argument you need for EMBRACING CHANGE!!
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Old 08-28-2009, 10:45 PM   #5988
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To me, VTA cars are moe the speed of a COT car goin' around Indy than what the F-1 cars were. Pretty slow in comparison. Even to the Indy cars. VTA is not too fast with the current rules IMO.
Your track sounds like it is the "right size" for the current 2c21.5 option, but my track is most definitely not. As previously stated, just before the weight limit was lowered for the 17.5 cars, our VTA cars were a few tenths faster, we were blowing through front tires in 3 days, and there were MANY laps seperating the field. NOT good racing. Thus a discussion about options for the future.
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Old 08-28-2009, 10:47 PM   #5989
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Nope, they're plenty fast enough right now. You go changin' we'll end up faster. Don't go changin' 'cause you won't buy a speedo and a battery. We did.
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Old 08-28-2009, 10:51 PM   #5990
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The indoor track is a whopping 60'X30'. My outdoor track is not as big as "Strictly", but pretty good size. I boast wide lanes at my track made especially for the novice drivers. It's normally challenging, but plenty of room to move.
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Old 08-28-2009, 10:55 PM   #5991
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As far as "well I don't run anything else that uses those batteries"...THAT lame argument cuts both ways. I don't run any classes where the 2s LiPo did me any good (when the CHANGE was made to 2s LiPo...see kids, those weren't always allowed) but I bought a couple for VTA anyway. And I'm by no means alone in that boat, but you didn't hear any of US crying the blues about it. That's where the class went, we wanted to race the class, we bought the battery. And charger(s).

Finally, it KILLS me to see changes that may be the "right" decision for a class (whether that happens to be 1s or not) held hostage to people who AREN'T willing to invest in the class. This happens in 1/12 too (so VTA is by no means alone in this phenomenon)...folks are invariably pissing and moaning about "but I can't use that in my Touring Car" whenever change is mentioned. The LAST thing a class should be held hostage to is folks who want to "add" the class almost as an afterthought because some of their equipment is compatible.
This stuff will sell on ebay! Theres really no reason to think that we are all stuck with 2s batteries and 21.5 motors. Heck you can probably buy new cases and split a 2s battery into two 1s packs. One way or the other, the guys that are really into this will make the new investment. The others will sit on the sidelines and bitch until they finally realize the fun they are missing. I will make the investment if one is required. Im looking forward to seeing what happens. Besides if VTA gets slowed down too much for you and you want to use your 2s batteries, you can still run RCGT. Theres lots of cool shells there. The other thing is with Novak trading refurbs for $5 and changing winds, if thats true then theres really no reason to cry if we have to change winds.
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Old 08-28-2009, 10:57 PM   #5992
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Nope, they're plenty fast enough right now. You go changin' we'll end up faster. Don't go changin' 'cause you won't buy a speedo and a battery. We did.
WTF???

Dude...you argued yourself into a corner with that (attempted) Massa shot. Now you're not even making sense.

You have CLEARLY decided, absent ANY evidence either way, what you want. We get that. Some of us are curious about "what if" and have invested time and money (on our own) to explore that. If that abrades your sensitive areas, that's how it goes. Get used to it. Note that the folks who are (POSSIBLY) advocating change aren't the ones making ultimatums like your "if you change it I won't play". We're in (and have been in since the beginning) for the loooong haul.

Oddly enough, the reason VTA was as successful as it was is that it was created for very specific reasons by people who've been around RC for a LONG time (almost 25 years now in my case, even longer for a couple of the other "fathers") and have seen classes come and go and understand WHY those classes fail. We also saw TC performance and cost rising steadily to where few can actually drive them to their limits and more and more are being priced out of the game.

We said from the outset--this class ain't gonna be everybody's cup of tea. Folks who dig the speed and "king of the hill" attitudes could (and still can) stay in TC. Folks who wanted to bring it back a step or two were who we targeted with the class. That focus might have gotten lost for a while, here's to hoping it comes back.
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Old 08-28-2009, 11:01 PM   #5993
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Good luck in all your endeavors.
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Old 08-29-2009, 12:13 AM   #5994
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Old 08-29-2009, 02:17 AM   #5995
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Scottrik, I find it amusing that you are suddenly on here laying the ground work for a slower power option, since you are being forced to move away from round cells. However since you openly admit to not embracing the 21.5/lipo option, that is a problem that you brought upon yourself. You talk about rising costs pricing people out of the game, yet your suggestions for slowing VTA would require that a majority of people buy new batteries, motors, electionics, and other miscellaneous items.

Personally, I have never thought the 21.5/lipo option was perfect. With the introduction of better brushless speed controls and better batteries, some of the issues have become more apparent. However I don't find it surprising that a round cell driver would be suggesting that we need to buy new batteries to make the class better. After all, buying new batteries every few months is what round cells racers were used to doing for the past 25 years. Personally I'd rather find a way to keep using my perfectly good 1 year old 2c lipos.

I think we all need to take a step back and realize that a lot of the testing of the 21.5 motor was done by oval racers. The fact that it has been a pretty decent fit for VTA has been nice. However, maybe it is time to work with Novak to develop a slower motor for VTA. Since Novak has developed their Ballistic line of motors, that may be a more realistic option that can be explored.

In the end, I'd rather hear about different racers/tracks finding ways to slow this class down without spending any money. I think I'll do my own testing this weekend and see if we can get the local VTA parking lot racers to slow the class down by using a much slower FDR.
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Old 08-29-2009, 06:03 AM   #5996
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A new wind would still be an investment. I get that at least you would be getting out of buying a motor AND a battery.

I see Rockin Bob's post and I think of a time when this class was almost what I wanted it to be, but just enough differrent to piss me off. Yes I'm talking about the sticker argument for those that remember it. Im not proud of it now, but I was the person with the Cartman "Screw you guys. Im goin home!" attitude. Guess what I stayed home. Life went on without me and I learned to appreciate the class for what it was and not what I hoped it could be for me. I also learned that if I wanted to I could deticate some resources to being legal for the class and still do what I wanted with the chassis the rest of the time. Right now my VTA chassis is a four cell drift machine because I think drifting is fun and with just a change of shell and wheels Im back to VTA status. Im afraid that for the class to move forward, (or back to its intent) you have to write off the rockin bob's and the snoopy's and hope that they see the good and come back like I did. Its just a matter of fact that you cant do what you think is best for the class and please everybody.
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Old 08-29-2009, 06:07 AM   #5997
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/sarcasm on

Why not just use brushless 4.0 winds? Wouldn't that be akin to the big ol' V8s these cars used to run?

/sarcasm off


There are many of the rules that I do not agree with, but yet will follow. The Novak 21.5 only rule. I Like Battman's dynamic timing one, but here in Memphis, it is fun to have that boost of speed, and I think the majority of us here are running that type of speedo.

The 1C option is interesting, and would be nice to bring everyone back together again. But there again, it will be hard to balance it with the other types of powerplants.

I applaud the people doing all this research, it makes it easier and more fun for the guys like me that have limited practice / race time due to RL schedules.
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Old 08-29-2009, 06:08 AM   #5998
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That doesn't make a great deal of sense either.

a) We didn't "embrace" the change locally. A couple of us have still purchased the 2s batteries and 21.5 motors (I travel a fair bit and race--obviously not everybody saw fit to "hold the line").

b) We have a number of racers here standing ready to purchase either a 1s or 2s battery and whatever brushless motor is appropriate to run the LiPo VTA. At this point we are trying to decide which way to go--and I'd give it even odds either way.

c) We're by no means backed into any sort of corner. Yet. Right now top of the line 4-cell battery packs are being sold for under $30. With reasonable care those packs could be VTA race packs for a couple of years beyond this one if they quit selling round cells this year. I'm not one of the folks who believe for a minute that round cells were "disposable" (I sold my IB 4200WC's after two full years of racing them to a fellow who is beginning HIS second year running them...it's all about the care they receive) but plenty of folks here have had a taste of LiPo (myself included) and would like to run them in VTA. Others will stay round cell and brushless until there's no one left to run with.
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Old 08-29-2009, 07:35 AM   #5999
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Originally Posted by IndyRC_Racer View Post
In the end, I'd rather hear about different racers/tracks finding ways to slow this class down without spending any money. I think I'll do my own testing this weekend and see if we can get the local VTA parking lot racers to slow the class down by using a much slower FDR.
Myself being one of the people doing testing in my area, I truely appreciate your future efforts. However, if you raise the FDR, the regular ESCs will go slower whereas the adjustable timing ESCs will simply raise the timing. Higher FDRs will exacerbate the issue I am most focused on reducing, which is bringing the field closer to together regardless of powerplants.

Case in point: My straightaway is 145' long and the adj-timing ESCs can't even run the 4.2 as it's too much gear, something in the range of 4.6 was more appropriate. If the non-adj-timing ESCs had to run 4.6 as well, the gap in their performance would have been even larger.
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Old 08-29-2009, 07:42 AM   #6000
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I think the importance of a "stable platform" can not be understated. The rules changed after one season, most people embraced the change (obviously not everyone, but everyone I race with now has, I was the last 4-cell hold out). The rules will most certainly stay the same for the next season. After that, another sweeping change?

Isn't a major tenant of the class that car setup is more important than the purchasing of the latest and greatest equipment? Isn't going to 1S and a different motor going against that? Admittedly, 1S LiPos are very affordable and most of us have different wind motors anyway, but how will people feel about having to relearn setup for a new spec?

Also, are we sure slowing the class down will make racing more competitive? I know this opinion is going to get shouted down, but the racing seems pretty competitive already. In fact, as speeds have come up in the class it seems like the racing has gotten closer as everyone has learned how to work in the spec. I'm okay with slowing the class down, but I wish the increase in competitiveness would stop being stated as fact. I don't think it is as cut and dry as all that.

It seems like the 1S LiPo is a huge benefit to people looking to get in to the hobby (very low entry cost, nice drivable speed). It comes at the cost of being a negative to many current members of the class (need to buy more "stuff," as cheap as the needed things may be, many people are still hesitant, many of us feel the current spec 'works').

All things considered, I guess if the 1S LiPo route comes out as the winner in the slow the class contest I won't stand in the way. But I want to see it be a clean break (USVTA is ONLY 1S 17.5 or whatever, no other power plant options), and come with some kind of promise that the spec will not change again in a couple of seasons.
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