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Old 08-23-2009, 06:20 AM   #5776
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Scottrik

Excellent pieces of information, espcially since a lot of oval racing is going with the 1s battery.

Some questions/things to consider...

1. Which 1s battery are you using? SMC seems to be the only one out with a 25c/4000mah battery and i've heard that there are several higher C-rated batteries coming out soon. With a 1s battery i'll bet that C-rating differences will make a larger difference.

2. How unbalanced is the chassis by using the 1s battery? I run an HPI Pro4 and that thing is heavy to the passenger side when using the 2s battery.

3. What ESC/Motor combo are you using? In oval racing we've found that with a Novak/Novak combo you can gear the crap out of them. If you're using a boost-enhancing ESC you run a lower ratio and carry the same speed.

4. Are you running a voltage booster or receiver pack? Some of us think that we may not need a booster but more testing can confirm that.

Just some thoughts from someone who's using a 1s battery in oval racing.
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Old 08-23-2009, 07:40 AM   #5777
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pejota View Post
1. Which 1s battery are you using? SMC seems to be the only one out with a 25c/4000mah battery and i've heard that there are several higher C-rated batteries coming out soon. With a 1s battery i'll bet that C-rating differences will make a larger difference.
I'm using the 25C / 4000mah SMC pack(s). My own belief is that the higher mah and C-ratings are much ado about nothing. IF we were running down into the last quarter (or maybe third) of the battery charge capacity the higher mah might start to show a difference in average voltage, but it will be a very small amount--small enough that a couple rubs against the rails negates the "advantage". Since we're only using 16-1700 mah of the charge in 10 minutes (two minutes longer than a VTA race) any difference in average voltage is likely to be measured in thousandths of a volt. If your name is Blackstock or Baker that might make a difference, but for 99% plus of the racers out here the difference would be strictly between the ears.

As far as C-rating, we aren't drawing anywhere NEAR 25C. Ever. Period. That would be 100 amps. Maybe with a hotter wind you're seeing peak draws near that. With the 13.5 it MIGHT register (I don't know, but I doubt it) an instantaneous draw at that sort of amperage from a dead stop, but it would fall immediately below that the instant the wheels started turning...and that happens exactly once in a race unless you screw up.

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2. How unbalanced is the chassis by using the 1s battery? I run an HPI Pro4 and that thing is heavy to the passenger side when using the 2s battery.
Actually the chassis is balanced better than it's ever been. Obviously I needed to add weight to get up to the minimum 1450g, even on my tubby TC4 with a heavy body. I wedged a Magnatech 4-cell brass LiPo weight in with the battery and mounted the esc over in the battery area at the front and slid the battery and weight up against the esc. I needed to add 1 ounce / 28g of lead and did so with 7g at each front corner (on the chassis braces) and 14g stuck to the outside of the chassis at the RR (motor side) corner. I'm equal side-to-side across the front, within 10g across the rear, and within 25g front-to-rear. Again, this chassis has NEVER balanced that nicely.

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3. What ESC/Motor combo are you using? In oval racing we've found that with a Novak/Novak combo you can gear the crap out of them. If you're using a boost-enhancing ESC you run a lower ratio and carry the same speed.
I'm using a Novak GTB with the LiPo cutoff turned off. I'm guessing that IF we allow LiPo into VTA that we will ban "adjustable" esc's (esp. the Tekin RS's, KO BMC's, etc). My own preference would be to mandate the Novak Havoc as they're dirt cheap as a combo, but we'll see. I don't think anyone foresaw adjustable timing esc's, but they probably should have been banned from USVTA, but that horse is out of the barn now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pejota View Post
4. Are you running a voltage booster or receiver pack? Some of us think that we may not need a booster but more testing can confirm that.
Yes--running a voltage booster, one of the $7 Chinese units that boosts to a 5v output. As it is, with the TC I'm going to end up putting a faster servo into the car. I always have used a fairly slow servo as I slow even that down with my radio, but it's noticeably sluggish now. For this car I would consider the Novak booster (even at its stratospherically high price by comparison) because it has the 6v output.

I can see how in oval racing that no booster, etc would be necessary as you could just adjust turn-in points and look for relatively steady-state performance. In the cut-and-thrust of a road course, though, the transitions from left to right are just too slow. And the course we've set up for this test isn't particularly "tight". The "tighter" the course the bigger the disadvantage would be seen. This course has a couple spots that really try to suck you in too deep, and if you do get sucked in it kills you for the following corner or two as you struggle to get back on-line.

Well...gotta eat some breakie and head to the track for day two.
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Old 08-23-2009, 07:43 AM   #5778
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Good luck with that. Thanks for the info and geez, thanks for the work you put in.
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Old 08-24-2009, 06:14 AM   #5779
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Well...

It was an interesting, educational, and ultimately disappointing day testing our proposed VTA combo (1s / 13.5) yesterday.

To recap, we're TRYING to find a LiPo / Brushless (or, heck, LiPo / Brushed) combo that we can run that is TRULY equivalent to the incumbent 4-cell / 27T brushed combo that is all we have ever run here. Saturday we tested three cars that under the incumbent formula were all front runners and ran lap times very comparable to each other. I was running the 1s / 13.5 combo and had gotten the gearing down as low as an FDR of 5.0 and had the car turning times that were equivalent to the 4-cell / 27T car (running consistent 10.8's)and about a half second behind the 2s / 21.5 car. My temp was about 110* after 10 minutes running so I was pretty sure I had a fair bit more "in the bag". As it turns out, I was correct.

On Sunday we continued to drop the FDR on my car, a TC4 "Tubby". First step was that I had to put on an even smaller spur gear as I'd gotten as far as I could with the 88T gear we'd installed Saturday. The largest pinion the Tubby would accomodate without grinding relief into the chassis webbing was a 46T and that wouldn't quite get us to the next step which was going to be 4.5FDR.

At a 4.5FDR (actually 4.53) my car gained another 4 tenths, top five laps averaged 10.4 seconds and the temp was only up to 115*. Time to add some more gear. At this point I could feel the loss of acceleration and was taking somewhat more sweeping lines through the turns to gain the time. This is absolutely A-OK in a practice situation, but that's not always possible in a race situation where you are (potentially) giving away the inside line. I wasn't having to swing WAY wide or anything, just had to drive a bit further to maintain more corner speed than I'd had to. The improved top end, though, was more than enough to offset this minor loss of acceleration.

To get to a 4.0FDR, though, I finally had to break down and grind away at the webbing for pinion clearance as I was going to need a 49T pinion. This was easily accomplished with a cordless Dremel and a cutting bit. Using this combination I started having some radio problems, intermittently "losing" the car in one particular place on the track. Did some playing around with the antenna positioning, etc, but still found a couple tenths. The top 5 laps averaged 10.196 and the top 10 laps averaged 10.26. Car came off the track with a motor temp just under 120*.

Next step was a 3.5FDR, accomplished by going to a 56T pinion (actual was 3.48FDR). At this point the radio problem was showing up pretty consistently in two locations on the track and the car was pretty much impossible to drive. What I figured out was that the Spektrum was falling below voltage threshold under acceleration at the higher-draw sections of the track where there might be weaker reception areas as our track is in a windowless basement with a low ceiling and LOTS of fluorescent lighting, radio problems (even with Spektrum) aren't unheard of here. I happened to have one of Spektrum's power capacitors in my radio case so I popped that in and POOF, problem solved. YEAH!!

At 3.5 we'd passed the "sweet spot" so testing was, for all intents and purposes, over. The car ran it's top 5 at 10.4 and top ten at 10.5, and to get those numbers I was having to "sweep" the turns as much as possible which would REALLY be giving away the inside line in a race situation. Motor temp had also jumped to 155*, another indicator that the sweet spot had been passed.

The ultimate gearing may lie between 3.5 and 4.0, and it may lie between 4.0 and 4.5 as we saw our peak times at the 3.98FDR actual and had been making comparatively big jumps either side of that. Unfortunately for our purposes finding that "perfect point" for this track didn't matter--it was too fast. As might be expected, after more than 2 years of running the 4-cell / 27T combo that car was pretty much at it's peak lap times after learning the layout. 10.8's was where it was going to run. The 2s / 21.5 car continued to play with it's gearing a bit (optimum was at about 4.4FDR on the Xray 007 that was testing this combo for us) and ended up running best 5 laps at 9.9 and best 10 laps at 10.0. This means the 1s / 13.5 was a fair bit closer to the 2s / 21.5 combo than the 4-cell / 27T combo we'd hoped to run it with. Bummer. We COULD mandate a minimum FDR at 4.5 but we'd really like to stay away from that--my own feeling is that precious few folks really understand what FDR is or represents and fewer yet can accurately calculate it.

I should also point out that to make sure what we were testing was differences between power systems none of the three of us did any suspension tuning beyond balancing the cars out with the LiPo systems to weight at the stated 1450g minimum. These cars already lapped pretty much on-the-nose with each other using the incumbent 4-cell / 27T spec. Fiddling with the suspension Shawn might have been able to optimize a bit and gain a tenth or two with his 2s / 21.5 combo car. My car really probably stood to gain the most if I was to actually make suspension adjustments but it's been a matter of pride that I have (for example) never even opened the shocks since I dug the chassis out of the basement when we started experimenting to create the VTA class. To this day I can't honestly tell you if there's even any oil in the shocks much less what weight it is. The rest of my "set-up" similarly follows the "ignorance is bliss" rule. It is not at all unimaginable that with a little tuning the 1s / 13.5 combo could have been as fast as (or even faster?) than the 2s / 21.5 combo. My car is REALLY "lazy" with a lot of roll and resistant to changing direction. The old Z590 servo really serves to exagerate these tendencies and was clearly too slow at the 1s power even with the booster to 5v. That said, it is as stable and predictable as a cruise ship in a duck pond--I can put it on a time and keep it there all freakin' day absent hitting, getting hit, or something in the way. Or all three.

What are we going to end up doing? I'm not 100% sure, there are a few folks in the club who weren't present for the test sessions who we need to talk to about it yet. The consensus of those involved in the test, though, was that we aren't going to be able to mix the LiPo / brushless in with the existing 4-cell / 27T racers and not have some folks keenly disappointed. It absolutely KILLS me to "split" a class (we aren't a terribly large club) but the solution seems to be that we maintain the existing 4-cell / 27T spec for a "Club-Spec" VTA class and implement a LiPo / Brushless class to run separately. Then the question becomes "which LiPo / Brushless spec to we go with?". This isn't quite the slam-dunk it seems...keeping in mind that one of the reasons WE started down the VTA path initially was to create a distinctly slower class and, while a bit slower, the 2s / 21.5 VTA spec isn't a ton slower than the 2s / 17.5 Rubber TC cars we were running between tests. In the end, though, the three of us feel that if we're going to split the class that we may as well go with the existing national spec and offer a "full" USVTA class here at long last. Unfortunately, this renders everything we learned about 1s / 13.5 in VTA absolutely moot...other than the learning exercise it was.

Something else we're seriously discussing is phasing "technology" into the "Club-spec" VTA. It seems a pretty well accepted fact that round cells aren't going to be very available for much longer...the market is shifting very rapidly to the LiPo (and other alternative) power sources. The second pillar VTA was created upon was the idea of "cost containment" and wholesale technology shift doesn't meet that criteria very well. What we MIGHT do (probably will do?) for the upcoming season is allow brushless 17.5 in with the 4-cell class which would allow folks who chose to start investing to go ahead and purchase a brushless system now and get going with that tech (because they'll also be buying new pinion sets in the range allowed by the brushless, etc) this year and then can look at purchasing LiPo (and chargers, and balancers, etc) down the road either a) when they choose to join the "full" USVTA-spec class, or b) when they can't reliably source round cells anymore.

Another area of discussion among us was whether or not to limit esc technology. As (honestly) no one has purchased esc's for VTA yet no one would be "stuck" with a speedo they couldn't use. We were pretty much split on whether to do this or not so we'll probably leave it open. I'd be 100% for mandating the Havoc / 21.5 as it is honest to the original cost-containment intent of the class but I'm afraid I'll be over-ruled. We'll see.

Last edited by Scottrik; 08-24-2009 at 06:59 AM.
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Old 08-24-2009, 06:39 AM   #5780
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awesome info....here is an idea, instead of them buying 17.5's to run 4 cell for new tech...let them run the 4 cells with the 21.5...that way if they do go "FULL VTA" they will only have to get lipos...the 21.5 is going to be close as well with the fdr around 4.5...hope you get it worked out...


also who had a blast racing VTA this weekend...here is a snip of what we did..

largest Jr TA race this summer...thats alot of FROSTIES!

have report later today

CHEAP PLUG...THIS SATURDAY AUGUST 29 IN NASHVILLE,TN AT THE THUNDER RC RACEWAY ON THE 95X45 CARPET TRACK WILL BE THE 2009 CASHVILLE 24 HOUR SCALE TRANS-AM ENDURO CASH RACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 08-24-2009, 06:54 AM   #5781
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Again, and I repeat myself, you have done an EXCELLENT job attracting youngsters into the hobby. My hat is off to you and your club.
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Old 08-24-2009, 08:02 AM   #5782
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If your down .5, how about 5/6 cell 27t? I can't imagine picking up more than .5 a sec with one more cell, maybe with the full 6. Also why not give 1s/17.5 a try, I agree that the FDR limit make tech difficult so finding a combo that doesn't require it would be ideal.
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Old 08-24-2009, 08:45 AM   #5783
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All this research is pretty cool, I must admit. I have run into a couple of cars running Tekin RSs running the SS21.5 2S and they are almost 17.5 2S fast. My driving isn't that horrible, but I can't hang with these guys at all running a SP LPF 1.1 and that's even slightly programmable. The funny thing is that I own 3 RSs and will not put one in the TA car. I feel it is an unfair advantage and takes away from fun of the class. I'd rather run it in my 17.5 Sedan/RCGT car, my 7.5 Open stadium truck and my 13.5 1S WGT. If anyone needs to feel that dominant, they should move up a class. I've been trying to get my ancient TC3 to be the best it can be to help me drive it better. I rarely change the setup. I regear for the track and temp, but that's about it. My latest attempt for smooth driving is to get new bearings. I thought afer 10years the old ones deserve a little break. They should arrive before our next club race. I did finally weight my car this weekend and its at 1486 and balanced enough for my taste.
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Old 08-24-2009, 09:19 AM   #5784
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Default NORTHEAST VINTAGE RACE WEEKED!!!!!

RACE ANNOUNCEMENT!!!!

1st Annual Vintage Onroad Challange

Date: October 17-18

Track: Control Freakz Chaplin,CT

Classes: US Vintage Trans Am (electric)
200mm Nitro Vintage Trans AM
235mm Pancar (electric)
2wd 1/8 Vintage Nitro

Rules: ELECTRIC TRANS AM CLASS:
USVTA rules. Only exception is that ANY 21.5 will be allowed!!!

NITRO TRAMS AM CLASS:
BODY SPECIFICATIONS : SAME BODY RULES AS ELECTRIC CLASS

CHASSIS SPECIFICATIONS : ANY 200MM ON ROAD CHASSIS IS ALLOWED.

ENGINE SPECIFICATION : ANY .12 ENGINE IS ALLOWED.

TIRE SPECIFICATION : ANY FOAM TIRE IS ALLOWED , HOWEVER IN KEEPING WITH THE VINTAGE TRANS AM APPEARANCE NO DISH RIMS ALLOWED.

MAINS : A-MAIN WILL BE 15 MINUTES IN LENGTH , ALL LOWER MAINS WILL BE 10 MINUTES IN LENGTH.THE TOP THREE FINISHERS IN ALL THE MAINS WILL RECEIVE A TROPHY.

235 MM ELECTRIC PAN CAR CLASS:
BODY SPECIFICATIONS : ANY 235 MM BODY TYPE IS ALLOWED (GTP STYLE BODIES ARE STILL AVAILABLE FROM McALLISTER RACING AND PROTOFORM)

CHASSIS SPECIFICATIONS : ANY BRAND OF 2WD PAN CAR TYPE CHASSIS IS ALLOWED AS LONG AS ITíS 235 MM WIDE.

TIRE SPECIFICATION : ANY FOAM TIRE IS ALLOWED

MOTOR SPECIFICACATION: ANY MOTORS UP TO AND INCLUDING 13.5 TURN BRUSHLESS OR 19 TURN BRUSHED IS ALLOWED.

BATTERY SPECIFICCATION : ANY 2 CELL R.O.A.R. APPROVED 7.4V LIPO BATTERY UP TO AND INCLUDING 5000 mah OR ANY 6 CELL NiMH PACK UP TO AND INCLUDING 5000 mah .

MAINS : ALL MAINS WILL BE 8 MINUTES IN LENGTH.THE TOP THREE FINISHERS IN ALL THE MAINS WILL RECEIVE A TROHY.

1/8 NITRO ON ROAD CLASS:
BODY SPECIFICATIONS : ANY 1/8 VINTAGE TYPE BODY ALLOWED ( AVAILABLE FROM HISTORIC RC .COM OR DELTAPLASTIK.COM )

CHASSIS SPECIFICATIONS : ANY 1/8 2WD PAN OR SUSPENSION CHASSIS ALLOWED. 2 SPEEDS TRANNYS ARE ALSO ALLOWED. FUEL TANKS ARE TO BE NO LARGER THAN 125CC.

ENGINE SPECIFICATION : ANY BRAND OF ENGINE IS ALLOWED, BUT MUST BE NO LARGER THAN .21 CU. IN. OR 3.5CC.

TIRE SPECIFICATION : ANY FOAM TIRE IS ALLOWED

MAINS : A-MAIN WILL BE 15 MINUTES IN LENGTH , ALL LOWER MAINS WILL BE 10 MINUTES IN LENGTH.THE TOP THREE FINISHERS IN ALL THE MAINS WILL RECEIVE A TROPHY.

CONCOURS DíELEGANCE RULES:
CHASSIS AND/OR BODY DOES NOT HAVE TO PARTICIPATE IN THE RACING PORTION OF THE EVENT.HOWEVER A TROPHY WINNING VEHICLE MUST PROVE TO BE AN ACTUAL OPPERATING R/C CAR.THIS WILL BE DONE BY MAKING AT LEAST ONE FULL LAP UNDER ITíS OWN POWER AROUND THE TRACK.THIS LAP DOES NOT HAVE TO BE AT FLAT OUT SPEED.

SWAP MEET INFO: A PARTICIPANT IN THE SWAP MEET MUST BRING THEIR OWN TABLE(S).
SWAP MEET WILL BE HELD IN SEPARATE AREA OF RACE SITE SO THERE IS NO CONFUSION OF WHAT A PARTICIPANT IS SELLING AND THE EQUIPMENT THAT THEY ARE USING THAT DAY


Entry Fees: $40 for first class. $25 for each additional class.

Schedule:
Staurday: Practice, Swap Meet. There is a $5 charge to sell in the Swap Meet. The $5 charge will be waived if you are signed up to race on Sunday. R/C related items only please.

Sunday:Concourd D'elegance judging, Qualifing (3 - 5 minute rounds), Mains, Trophy Presentations.

Link to Control Freaks: https://controlfreakz.com/Home_Page.php

ROAR Membership IS required. This is a track rule.


IF you have any questions please PM me or E-Mail me at [email protected]

Hope to see some of you there!!!
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Old 08-24-2009, 10:07 AM   #5785
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I'm not sure how I feel about slowing the cars down.

Slower speeds would make for better racing and would probably be more fun to watch too. But those super wide HPI vintage tires provide so much grip that the cars want to go faster. Now that I have a Tekin in each of my VTA and RCGT cars, my VTA gets .5 second better lap times and can blow other (non-Tekin) RCGT cars down the straight. Doesn't seem right, but it sure is fun driving that VTA car.

Because of those big ol' tires, has anyone tried removing the front belt and run rear wheel drive only? This is closer to the real TA cars. Motors, ESC's, and batteries won't mean a thing if you use all that power pushing through a corner.

To get the things to turn in I'm betting that you'll have to add much more weight to the cars - maybe 1600g, which may slow the cars down even more.

Remove the front belt - what do you think?
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Old 08-24-2009, 10:17 AM   #5786
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Not like this is going to happen but.......

What if Associated re-released the RC10 Dual Sport. A 2wd gearcase car would be as close as it gets to a real VTA car.
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Old 08-24-2009, 10:55 AM   #5787
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Not like this is going to happen but.......

What if Associated re-released the RC10 Dual Sport. A 2wd gearcase car would be as close as it gets to a real VTA car.
I have one in the basement, still has a 90s Camaro body. Its just about pristine. It was set up as a carpet oval car on rubber tires for the novice class before I bought it. I should bring it to the track for some grins.
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Old 08-24-2009, 11:31 AM   #5788
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Not like this is going to happen but.......

What if Associated re-released the RC10 Dual Sport. A 2wd gearcase car would be as close as it gets to a real VTA car.
funny you bring that up I just sold one for $50 with a musturdstang body on it. don't think you could get new people in to it with only one car type in the class. hard enough getting new racers to stick with novak 21.5
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Old 08-24-2009, 04:14 PM   #5789
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Remove the front belt - what do you think?
I applaud your effort to reccommend something new, but I dont think you are going to get clubs to go for it. Plus Im not sure all of the shaft drive cars can be converted. I think its more difficult to implement than you think.
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Old 08-24-2009, 06:56 PM   #5790
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Default CASHVILLE 24HR SCALE TRANS-AM ENDURO

THIS SATURDAY AUGUST 29TH IN NASHVILLE,TN AT THUNDER RC RACEWAY

CASHVILLE 24HR SCALE TRANS-AM ENDURO
the countdown has started....


several teams of 3 will compete in a 24 hour scale Trans-am race.

Teams from 4 states and over 10 different cities.

These teams are going for a $500 cash payout and team concourse trophy contest.

Look for some surprises from "un-known" teams and last minute entries.

Sign-ups are still being accepted.

Friday night club/points race on the new layout at 7pm.

You still have time to get a team together or join a team needing an extra member.

contact me at 615-851-1876 or email or pm if needing any help at all.

CYA SOON AND GOOD LUCK!!!!!!
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