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Old 08-18-2009, 02:44 PM   #5716
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Originally Posted by liljohn1064 View Post
First of all. I'm running Novak SS21.5s and will continue to until the USVTA rules change. It was nice gesture by ROAR to adopt the class, but their rules confuse things by stating any approved 21.5 when at the time the chosen motor for the class wasn't even on the list.

I guess from a technical standpoint is a 21.5 a 21.5? (rhetorical question)

This part of the debate that one motor is better than the others needs to end before we lose people from this class. Having a spec is key to the success.

Can someone with some real test gear check a Novak, a Tekin, a Speed Passion, a Trinity and any other motor professing to be a 21.5 and do a full physical test? Are the windings the same, are the rotors the same, is the inductance the same?
The ROAR rules are any 21.5 because it is their policy to not show favoritism to any manufacturer. The tire for ROAR is not specified as the HPi tire, however the dimensions specified are the same as the HPI tire/rim, which are unique.
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Old 08-18-2009, 03:03 PM   #5717
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The ROAR rules are any 21.5 because it is their policy to not show favoritism to any manufacturer. The tire for ROAR is not specified as the HPi tire, however the dimensions specified are the same as the HPI tire/rim, which are unique.
Yes sir. I can see both sides of the argument, but I am sticking to the rules as written and will work on my driving. I am a stickler for rules.

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Old 08-18-2009, 04:15 PM   #5718
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Well I'm not trying to be an ass, by my local track just lost me by switching the rules. I'm all for the fun the class represents, but I also want to be competitive.
The whole reason I got back into the hobby was the VTA class and now they go any 21.5. It's this crap that helped me decide to leave racing in the first place.
Oh well should have know better than to get back in.

I wished I lived someone close to some of you guys. I'd love to race somewhere that stuck by their guns on rules. Then tracks wonder why they have a small group of regulars.
dont leave over rules...look at it this way....if ppl just went by the USVTA rules , no track that runs Trans-am racing would have a problem, bottom line...no debate about this motor or body or speedos...but for those tracks that cater to the locals for whatever reason or another...at least have some hard facts that going to allow ppl whom are running 100% VTA to be on the same playing field as the house/local rules...Im the last one to say dont allow this or that..but all the adjustments we have made are as true to the rules as it gets...and with fequent racers from outta town to testify to as well..even myself when I run my TC5/VTA...

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Originally Posted by HarryN View Post
Wait wait wait, back up. I asked Mimi about this when I bought a new motor for my VTA car. She said and I quote in verbatim; "Over here we can use any 21.5 motor. For other large sponsored events you need to use NOVAK 21.5. But over here, you can use any 21.5 motor." With that in mind, I got the Speed Passion 21.5 motor because I am going by The Track rules per Mimi.

So now, I cannot participate in the Grand Slam series??? I mean we're going by what The Track sanctions... right?? I am pretty livid right now.
similar situation in Memphis with the Beat the Heat 09'...the locals have been running black can with lipos/6cell at a set fdr...and most of the class was 100% vta..which had some asking is it fair...while I dont race there all the time , the normal fast guys say it was even during club races...was it fair?..the top 5 cars were all USVTA w/ 21.5/lipos..Novak....

Quote:
Originally Posted by liljohn1064 View Post
First of all. I'm running Novak SS21.5s and will continue to until the USVTA rules change. It was nice gesture by ROAR to adopt the class, but their rules confuse things by stating any approved 21.5 when at the time the chosen motor for the class wasn't even on the list.

I guess from a technical standpoint is a 21.5 a 21.5? (rhetorical question)

This part of the debate that one motor is better than the others needs to end before we lose people from this class. Having a spec is key to the success.

Can someone with some real test gear check a Novak, a Tekin, a Speed Passion, a Trinity and any other motor professing to be a 21.5 and do a full physical test? Are the windings the same, are the rotors the same, is the inductance the same?
the only testing we did was on the track...my Novak TC5 against a Tamiya car with Tekin rs pro and 21.5..redline?...and he is a pretty good driver...90+ feet of straight and the RD nor the crowd could see a difference...now doing some hard facts..I think should be left upto the USVTA...but all in all...isnt just going to cause more head-aches...lets be happy that we have just one motor to choice from...cause if we didnt...how many ppl whose driving is so-so...will go spend another $80 on a new motor just to get that extra edge...then next month..oh snap Trinity puts out a new one and here comes the "Snowball"....run the Novak and leave it alone...I like the idea that the sucka next to me got the same small block as me...my carburator might be fuel injected(esc..SPX)...but at least thats the advantage within the rules
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Old 08-18-2009, 04:17 PM   #5719
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Spec'd motors are useless unless you spec the speed controls as well.

The way Battman does VTA where he is, is about as close to spec as it's going to get.

Now, what happens when the people following the spec USVTA uses show up to a ROAR sanctioned event, or when they put on a ROAR sanctioned event?

What motor / speed control rules do you use?


Now in the future, there might be some ROAR rules regarding the speed controls and their abilities to artificially advance timing.

Don't take what I say the wrong way. I am just playing devil's advocate here.
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Old 08-19-2009, 09:08 AM   #5720
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Originally Posted by DARKSIDE View Post
the only testing we did was on the track...my Novak TC5 against a Tamiya car with Tekin rs pro and 21.5..redline?...and he is a pretty good driver...90+ feet of straight and the RD nor the crowd could see a difference...now doing some hard facts..I think should be left upto the USVTA...but all in all...isnt just going to cause more head-aches...lets be happy that we have just one motor to choice from...cause if we didnt...how many ppl whose driving is so-so...will go spend another $80 on a new motor just to get that extra edge...then next month..oh snap Trinity puts out a new one and here comes the "Snowball"....run the Novak and leave it alone...I like the idea that the sucka next to me got the same small block as me...my carburator might be fuel injected(esc..SPX)...but at least thats the advantage within the rules
I agree completely. I was trying to make the point that no matter what motor you run they are essentially the same, so don't bother to switch from Novak. It won't help anyway. That's why I run the logo as an avatar and have the rules link in my signature. I wouldn't even mind the rules even being more specific. I'm sorry that ROAR cannot put a specific vendor in their rules based on brands, but that's their deal.

FYI, I got mine handed to me last night. I was running my GT350H body on my TC3 and just could not get the car to hook up. It was a track new to me. My tires came off coated in rubber every run. Oh well, live and learn.
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Old 08-19-2009, 09:24 AM   #5721
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Rob (or anyone...) - Any chance of adjusting the USVTA battery rules to allow 5200 mah (i.e. SMC), rather than the current 5000 limit? Wouldn't need to buy a new battery for this year then...

Thanks, Denney
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Old 08-19-2009, 10:10 AM   #5722
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Rob (or anyone...) - Any chance of adjusting the USVTA battery rules to allow 5200 mah (i.e. SMC), rather than the current 5000 limit? Wouldn't need to buy a new battery for this year then...

Thanks, Denney
I highly doubt this will happen any time soon the idea is to keep the cost down and prevent anyone from feeling the need to buy the new batteries to keep up. I understand your reason for looking for a change to the rules to use the same battery in other classes but if you make this change then it opens the door to other things and Im sure Rob wants to keep it closed as long as he can.
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Old 08-19-2009, 10:31 AM   #5723
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Whats the point in the 5000mah rule? I mean I run my 5400SMC somtines and somtimes i run my 4500mah SMC....

youll never use a full battery, only racing for 6 minutes its not like its some kind of race the last one running wins...

if somone needs to add weight to the car thats the easiest way, bigger battery...

I fail to see the point in a 5000mah battery limit....

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Old 08-19-2009, 10:40 AM   #5724
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The point is to keep the costs down. I was looking at some new batteries on tuesday and they are getting up there $125+. The rule is more of a price cap than a capacity cap.
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Old 08-19-2009, 10:48 AM   #5725
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The point is to keep the costs down. I was looking at some new batteries on tuesday and they are getting up there $125+. The rule is more of a price cap than a capacity cap.
No this is too obvious this cant be the reason.....

Seriously this is the reason to keep the cost down....these larger capacity packs cost more.....limit the capacity you limit the cost as well.
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Old 08-19-2009, 11:06 AM   #5726
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Maybe the intention was to keep costs down but that just doesn't hold true now (personally didn't think it did then either). The cost factor is not as big a deal when you look at capacity... its C rating that is the huge cost factor. I don't really care if it is lifted or not but the cost reasoning just doesn't make sense.

Just look on Tower for the SMC 5200 24C ($74), SMC 6000 28C ($89), SMC 4700 40C ($119), SMC 5200 40C ($159). There are plenty more examples just like that.

Personally I think the easiest way would be to just go with the ROAR list and be done with it. You know guys are out buying the latest and greatest C rated 5000's anyway. Those that know it isn't going to make that much difference with a 21.5 aren't falling into that trap.

Heck lets just slow it down and go to the 1S/17.5... there are only a few options for those batteries and you can use any 17.5. Now everyone is happy... ok maybe not....
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Old 08-19-2009, 11:10 AM   #5727
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Maybe the intention was too keep costs down but that just doesn't hold true now (personally didn't think it did then either). The cost factor is not as big a deal when you look at capacity... its C rating that is the huge cost factor. I don't really care if it is lifted or not but the cost reasoning just doesn't make sense.

Just look on Tower for the SMC 5200 24C ($74), SMC 6000 28C ($89), SMC 4700 40C ($119), SMC 5200 40C ($159). There are plenty more examples just like that.
I thought about those as I was typing my reply, but those are fairly recent additions. They weren't around that I know of when this class got started. I'm sure they would work great but for simplicity sake should the rules keep changing every time something new comes out?
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Old 08-19-2009, 11:14 AM   #5728
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Since the USVTA only allows ROAR approved batteries:

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Originally Posted by USVTA rules
Battery Specifications:
4 cell NiCd or NiMh batteries, 4600 mAh limit
2 cell ROAR-approved LiPo hard cased, 5000 mAh limit (21.5 brushless motor option ONLY)
You should always check the ROAR approved battery list found here: http://www.roarracing.com/approvals/lipobattery.php).

After checking the approved list, I did a quick search on TowerHobbies to fnd what batteries were available at 5000mah or less. I found quite a range just in the SMC batteries. There were several "budget" batteries with lower C/MAH ratings that were around $75-85 and there some batteries with higher C/MAH ratings that were between $100-120.

I believe that we have plenty of cost effective battery choices given the current rule even if we are using VTA batteries in other classes.

Personally I out-qualified a number of drivers this past weekend using an Orion 2400 which is a 20c battery that costs less than $40. (We allow this battery locally since we also run TCS classes that allow it.) I keep reminding myself to worry about car setup and driving before spending more money in this class. I recommend buying an affordable ROAR approved lipo battery from a manufacturer you trust and just have fun.
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Old 08-19-2009, 11:25 AM   #5729
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You know guys are out buying the latest and greatest C rated 5000's anyway.
Then perhaps a 5000mAh AND a 40C limit should be imposed? Thankfully we don't have to buy every new 21.5 that hits the market, nor do we have to constatly buy tires. Once every speedo on earth has adjustable high-rpm timing, we won't have to chase the latest, greatest software either. Growing pains, they suck, but that's racing. At least our racing produces smiles and laughs, the same cannot be said for some other TC classes.
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Old 08-19-2009, 11:43 AM   #5730
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Although I think C rating doesnt really matter in 21.5 racing, why not put a C rating opposed to the capacity limit... C rating is what costs so much... I think 30C should be the limit. Any lipo under 30C can be got for under $90 for most make of lipos...

Just sounds more logical since we all know someone went and spen $130 on the new SMC 50C lipo they just released... thats not keeping the cost low...

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