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Old 04-12-2009, 10:22 AM   #4741
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They should come down in November - early March time frame - that would be a good time for them to enjoy the benefits we do Dino!
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Old 04-12-2009, 10:29 AM   #4742
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Scottrik, I hope you are enjoying the racing you are doing in your area. You seem to have a good group, and things are working for you.

My question is if everything we are doing is so terrible, yet we are like 800 mi. away from you and it is not affecting you, who cares? You admit you won't come out here to race.

Also, NOBODY KNEW THE SINGLE CELL LIPO WAS COMING. It is that simple. And the 99% of guys who wanted lipo, and will never go back to nimh, are way happier than they would have been having to deal with 4 cell packs for this class.

I wish we knew the single cell lipo would be around. I guarantee it would have been the option that was looked at. So what now, "ok guys let's get rid of those 21.5 motors"... The amount of crabby races would go up 100% around here.

Anytime there is a change, there is going to be upset people. I think lipo has been a change for the best for the greatest amount of racers.

Also, the trans Am tire outlasts any "competition" rubber tire by a huge margin. You run them until the tread is gone on carpet, and then save them for outdoor. Then you run them until they split. There is no way to get that much life out of a RP30.

As far as your motor that hasn't been turned in a year-that's good you can do that. I was never able to go more than a couple race days at most. Not to mention, I hate brushed motors.

I realize that everybody is looking to cut down on racing expenditures, but I don't know what do. I guarantee I had just as many old stock motors and 4 cells as anyone on here, and I gave away a ton of them to new racers in TA. I would just rather have to deal with 1 lipo and a bl motor that I stare at in the pits, vs all the baloney we used to go through.


I do think it wouldn't be a bad idea to slow the cars down some.
So what do we do? Reduce the gear limit-no that will just make the Esc more important. Eliminate 21.5/2S? That will not fly with everyone who has invested in that option.

The other thing is that 4 cell 27 turn is also now stagnant. There is no new technology going into it, vs. something new all the time for BL and Lipo. So how do we stop that?
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Old 04-12-2009, 10:31 AM   #4743
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You betcha. Invitation extended. Do I smell a future event ? Any of you experienced VTAers want to offer your help in exchange for some free lodging just let me know and we'll start planning.
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Old 04-12-2009, 10:45 AM   #4744
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robk....Good points. Hope you dont mind me chimin in. I firmly beleive in bl/lipo as the future and ultimately the standard BUT....as I mentioned earlier, if the technology isn't limited to fit the goals of the program then we end up with the same problems as touring has had and still has. I understand also the pain of replacing gear. But didnt we do that before ? New batts....new esc's....new tires...etc. Tech changes and thats a fact we've all lived with. I really do understand your point but maybe we could do something along the lines of a time limit to change motor/batt combos. Lets say we plan the change for 6 months - 1 yr from now. That way people can plan for the future. These 21.5/2s combos should be sellable for some time for other uses. Keep in mind that this is all based on whether the decision to change the motor/batt choice ever happens. Bottom line...I think we need to remember what the purpose of VTA is and what it's goals are. Spec performance and affordability are a big part of it. Just a thought for the long term life of the program.
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Old 04-12-2009, 11:15 AM   #4745
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robk View Post
Scottrik, I hope you are enjoying the racing you are doing in your area. You seem to have a good group, and things are working for you.

My question is if everything we are doing is so terrible, yet we are like 800 mi. away from you and it is not affecting you, who cares? You admit you won't come out here to race.

Also, NOBODY KNEW THE SINGLE CELL LIPO WAS COMING. It is that simple. And the 99% of guys who wanted lipo, and will never go back to nimh, are way happier than they would have been having to deal with 4 cell packs for this class.

I wish we knew the single cell lipo would be around. I guarantee it would have been the option that was looked at. So what now, "ok guys let's get rid of those 21.5 motors"... The amount of crabby races would go up 100% around here.

Anytime there is a change, there is going to be upset people. I think lipo has been a change for the best for the greatest amount of racers.

Also, the trans Am tire outlasts any "competition" rubber tire by a huge margin. You run them until the tread is gone on carpet, and then save them for outdoor. Then you run them until they split. There is no way to get that much life out of a RP30.

As far as your motor that hasn't been turned in a year-that's good you can do that. I was never able to go more than a couple race days at most. Not to mention, I hate brushed motors.

I realize that everybody is looking to cut down on racing expenditures, but I don't know what do. I guarantee I had just as many old stock motors and 4 cells as anyone on here, and I gave away a ton of them to new racers in TA. I would just rather have to deal with 1 lipo and a bl motor that I stare at in the pits, vs all the baloney we used to go through.


I do think it wouldn't be a bad idea to slow the cars down some.
So what do we do? Reduce the gear limit-no that will just make the Esc more important. Eliminate 21.5/2S? That will not fly with everyone who has invested in that option.

The other thing is that 4 cell 27 turn is also now stagnant. There is no new technology going into it, vs. something new all the time for BL and Lipo. So how do we stop that?
Is it posible to Limit what tyoe of equiptment can be used. Example I have the 21.5 Novak Havoc Verry afordable. I did splurge and bought a New Saddle pack Lipo, but I could of gotton one used for probly 1/2 the price so $149.99 for the BL/Esc and if I got the Lipo used maby $75.00. While the package is verry competative there is always atleast one person that wants the edge and is willing to spend almost $200 on just a Esc that has more features then the Havoc or a "Cheaper Brand" Now that person can put timing into the motor hense gear the Snot out of it and have the advantage of someone thats on a budget. Thats were VTA is going or has gone. You dont have to have he best equiptment in the world but the ones that do have the advantage. Its needs to be made more cost efficiant for everyone. im not saying the rules are bad they just need to be more direct. I bet im hitting a brick wall with this but VTA is starting to get out of hand.its starting to remind me of another class (Sedan 13.5)
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Old 04-12-2009, 01:56 PM   #4746
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I would wonder then if it's appropriate to not only make the Novak 21.5 the spec motor but maybe make the Havok the spec esc. If there is that much difference and the competition is heating up in the wallet instead of the track then this option should be viewed as the logical step. People have the Havoks for the most part and some pull em out and put in the RS or what have you. Fact is the racers with the high dollar esc will use em in another car without batting an eye... I in fact has an RS Pro in my 4 mod off road buggy but will not put it into my VTA as I think it's pushing the boundaries of what VTA is. Much like the real thing in its day it's like taking the 302 Cid engine and adding the high dollar cam or the forged pistons or even MSD ignition systems. The performance gains while maybe negotiable or minimal were still gains and really took away from what the class intentions were.
So lets maybe look at capping it with the esc limitations instead of the constant search for an alternative power plants or combinations.

The way I see it as someone who has raced nearly 20 years and seen a lot come and go is racers will do whatever is in the rules to the tee.... "If it's not in the rules it's illegal" so now the lack of a guideline of the esc has opened up a wallet or two and yes it is a performance gain. Part of why I will not use my RS Pro in my car is I tried it for testing and noticed this difference. Far more timing can be used and I can negate what the FDR limits me to with the Havok. The outdoor season is about to begin and my suggestion is before it starts why not make addendums to the rules stating the esc combo should be XXX to keep the caps on the wallets and make sure the essence of VTA is maintained.

Drivers will drive with the combo and be competitive and it will take away the "Must have the high dollar item to be competitive" mentality.
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Old 04-12-2009, 04:59 PM   #4747
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+1 vote for making the Havoc the spec esc.
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Old 04-12-2009, 05:05 PM   #4748
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+1 from me on the Havoc idea, also....

..... but you'd make A LOT of people upset over this
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Old 04-12-2009, 05:08 PM   #4749
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evoracer View Post
+1 vote for making the Havoc the spec esc.
So what do you say to someone like me. I bought a Speed passion ESC before the Hovak was out. It was the older version so while it didn't cost a lot, I'm also not going to buy a new ESC to replace a 6 month old one.

I'll just drop USVTA, the point was to avoid having to keep buying new gear.

If you make that change, why not change the battery to 1 cell Lipo also, let everyone start completely over with new gear.
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Old 04-12-2009, 05:15 PM   #4750
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Quick question about the 1-cell LiPo stuff - what chargers do 1-cell? I know my 2-cell hard cased lipos were cheap (the hobby city ones).
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Old 04-12-2009, 05:21 PM   #4751
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Quote:
Originally Posted by INFERN0 View Post
The outdoor season is about to begin and my suggestion is before it starts why not make addendums to the rules stating the esc combo should be XXX to keep the caps on the wallets and make sure the essence of VTA is maintained.
Shutting the gate after the horse has left the stable might only do more damage - forcing those that bought the top-level ESCs to invest in another piece of equipment might send racers in different directions, and kill the class in all but a few regions of the country. "Unwritten agreements" to keep the high-tech powertrains out of these cars is a noble idea, but it's too late for that in some cases. Let's face it guys - racers will be racers, and someone will always try to find methods to rise to the top or do what it takes to stay there - that's the nature of the beast, so to speak. The only way to make things even would be to spec every single part, much like we did back in the days of the BoLink Legends cars or more recently the Trinity T-Spec cars which truly put everyone on a more level playing field.

Don't get me wrong, I liked the original rule set where everyone ran 4 cells since things WERE a little more evenly matched, but with the introduction of newer technology, racers flocked to it in droves to in search of that small edge on the competition. This component of R/C racing is the one thing that will never go away, regardless of the rules being used since it's what drives most of us that truly enjoy RACING. Sure, there are people that come to the track and focus on "having a good time", but I've met very few racers that enter a competition with a goal of placing 5th. If it was all about "having a good time", we'd all be playing in our backyards or driveways with no timing systems to tell us where we'd placed.

Meanwhile, I'll attend the VTA spec races in my area of the country (I'm from NJ) and do the best I can with my FK05, Losi Xcelorin ESC, and 21.5/LiPo combination. However, I won't keep any of my secrets "secret" with the intent of educating those that are looking to go that little bit faster. Simply being open to providing others the assistance they seek in setting up their cars will keep them interested, and the numbers will grow as they spread the word to others looking to enter this class. I've accepted the fact that things will never be "even", but I will do what I can to attract new racers towards this class, even if it has become "Touring Car Lite"...
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Old 04-12-2009, 05:22 PM   #4752
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All three of my LiPo chargers will do (and have done) 1s LiPo.

Competition Electronics GFX(s) w/ LiPo upgrade

Electrifly PolyCharge 4

Thunderpower TP425

Best thing about 1s? No need to balance them!!
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Old 04-12-2009, 05:24 PM   #4753
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btw...

I would ABSOLUTELY support a spec esc/motor whatever it may be. At a street price of $150, though, the Havoc would be hard to beat.
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Old 04-12-2009, 05:47 PM   #4754
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I think its time for a chill pill.

OK first while some may argue that VTA is becoming more like TC, it still has major cool factor in the aesthetics of the class. It also still avoids the pitfalls that come with the speed of the stock(17.5) and superstock (13.5) classes.

Complete parity would require a complete dictatorship over every portion of the equipment used. You would have to spec everything, which really doesnt sound like fun. Honestly the guys that I know at my track that are really fast and consistent could run past me in what ever I can buy. It doesnt matter if they were limited to a Havoc or even to four cells/27t. Only track time, and commitment to the knowlege of set up can help me match them on the track. Sure equipment plays a role, but that role is often overstated.

Its no suprise that the 27t option is fading away, at least at the national level. Maybe we should just let it run its course. It does still offer itself as a stepping stone and a chance to learn on the cheap.
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Old 04-12-2009, 05:59 PM   #4755
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It's bad enough there is a spec motor, one of the interesting points about the class is that the majority of the equipment can be run in other classes as well, who will want to run a spec "slower" ESC in another class. I for one will not buy another ESC knowing I'm downgrading!!!

For those that want to slow the class down , how about an increase in the weight limit or a limit to the C rating of the Lipo, I switch from a 28C to a 40C I gain 0.3 per lap. I'd much rather have to switch batteries to be competitive in another class (like Rubber) than an ESC.

I reality, it IS racing and after you add the 'restrictor plates', we'll find another way to go fast, then we'll be having this discussion again!!
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