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Old 04-11-2009, 07:33 PM   #4711
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To be honest, I've never seen anyone say that it would be. What I have seen stated is that if you do do all of that motor magic and good batteries, then you can compete with a 24t/4 cell
Oh no--when the current spec was adopted it was going to have "parity" with the incumbent 4-cell / 17.5 and 4-cell / 27T combinations. Apparently there's a space-time continuum aberation in the mid-west where there was, for a fleeting moment (mostly because it's what they WANTED to see) equality. This didn't seem to happen anywhere else. The difference in voltage alone, and comparing the relative watts/kv of the motors involved I could see that MAYBE on a HUGE track with LONG straights and using the FDR restriction you might see equal lap times, but on a "normal" indoor track there was no way the 1s / 21.5 COULD'NT be faster. First time I saw them run pretty much confirmed that fact. And it ain't just a "smidge" either as many were professing all last fall...it's a substantial difference. FAR more than any differences between esc's or battery ratings will EVER gain.
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Old 04-11-2009, 07:38 PM   #4712
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After our first ever VTA race here we have one thing to say as a group.... "Damn that was %$&*'n fun!!!"
Now not to add to the debate on 21.5 over stock or 17.5 but it seems that even the 17.5 outperforms the stock motors unless they are treated like top end race motors. Letting them run with old brushes till it don't turn anymore, little or no maintenance and not doing anything to your car except changing a broken part is a formula for slower speeds. Yes there is much less needed to get those great speeds from a 17.5 and yes the 21.5 combo is even easier with allowances of Lipo but if your not doing the little things to stay on top then even the driver who is equally able to you will smoke you on the track.

I agree there is an advantage with 21.5 but initial cost for me was buying the motor esc combo then a couple good used Lipo packs (4000mAh SMC packs I got for 50 Canadian each), everything else is maintenance and keeping it rolling free as possible, driving clean as possible and carrying corner speed without oversteer scrubbing speed and finding a gear ratio that works.

I ran a Xray 08 NA edition with an FDR of 4.301 and took TQ by a mere .53 seconds after three rounds. Lots of battery left and barely warm esc and motor. I know it could gear up more 81/32 currently and be faster but it was first ever race with it. We are bound to have issues come up like you discuss here with 4 cell being slow but it's the option you have in reality... spend less and get more maintenance for your savings or spend more and be fairly maintenance free (ie mainenance being battery cycling, matching and storage plus motor comm care, brushes , springs and dyno work to make it as fast as possible).
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Old 04-11-2009, 07:54 PM   #4713
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....I know how to FIX the VTA for your BRUSHED guys....

Start running 4 cell 19t - it should get you back on par with the 21.5/LIPO cars!

(TEST IT FOR YOURSELF at YOUR local track)

NO, I'm not calling for a USVTA Rules change! Just an alternative, for local tracks who have guys wanting to still run old BRUSHED stuff!~
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Old 04-11-2009, 07:56 PM   #4714
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it's the option you have in reality... spend less and get more maintenance for your savings or spend more and be fairly maintenance free (ie mainenance being battery cycling, matching and storage plus motor comm care, brushes , springs and dyno work to make it as fast as possible).
But the point I'm making is that (here, anyway) we aren't doing that. THAT'S the beauty of it. None of us is jiggering with our cars trying to eke every last bit of performance out of it. None of us are cycling or matching batteries. No one even OWNS a dyno anymore, much less spends any time optimizing springs or brushes. We're pretty much down to ANNUAL comm cutting.

I guess it's just that I race with a bunch of guys who "get it", at least as far as keeping it a cheap and fun class, so other than getting newer chassis involved than had been originally intended (and that's really not proven to be a performance advantage at the low speeds possible) no one has been trying to out-massage anyone else. It's been great! And, as you found, Vintage TA (even the current spec) is about as much fun as can be had in RC racing.
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Old 04-11-2009, 07:59 PM   #4715
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As an old 27t/6cell racer I find this discussion really important but also a bit confusing. The motor/batt choices were apparently based on performance testing and the disparity between them was deemed small. Are we now saying that the disparity has significantly changed as technology has grown ?? And if so...why would it be outside the realm of possibility to simply revise the rules. Yes it would cause some initial pain but is that pain any different than the days of chasing the newest nmh cells or the hottest esc out there?? My god, a couple of years ago I was paying 100+ for 3300 matched packs....now we have 4000 mah Lipos for less than 50 bucks.
For the good of the program, maybe it's worth taking another look. Personally I'm still more comfortable around nmh cells and probably would have gone the 4/17.5 route had I not been advised against it. That was my first clue to the performance differences. I love brushless though. So much less maintenance over the long haul with the resultant lack of necessity for other equipment like lathes.
I have to imagine that new drivers are taking these same ideas to mind. The VTA approach is a really good one that allows people to get in with simplicity and then invest more as there wallets and knowledge base expand. But that only works if the combos don't make them feel as if their lack of investment means a huge gap in ability to be competitive once they have the skills.

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Old 04-11-2009, 08:00 PM   #4716
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....I know how to FIX the VTA for your BRUSHED guys....

Start running 4 cell 19t - it should get you back on par with the 21.5/LIPO cars!

(TEST IT FOR YOURSELF at YOUR local track)

NO, I'm not calling for a USVTA Rules change! Just an alternative, for local tracks who have guys wanting to still run old BRUSHED stuff!~
When we first started Vintage TA here that was pretty much the only difference between the rules we developed and what Scotty and Marty came up with at Trackside. They did 27T only, we offered a "Pro" class with 4-cell / 19T and a "Sportsman" class with 4-cell 27T. Problem was that no one (including the guys who really needed to) was running the 27T class so Vintage TA was looking pretty much exactly like the bash-fest TC racing is. So mid-way through our first season we killed the 19T "Pro" class and made everybody run 27T. The same guys were running at the front but the pack was MUCH tighter. Marty and Scotty were absolutely correct in their initial assumption, we were darn close but missed their perfection by just this much.

Having run ALL of the combinations I'd say that a 4-cell / 19T would be a fair bit faster than a 2s / 21.5 combo, even with my minimal battery and motor maintenance. Now a 4-cell / 13.5 combo would probably be pretty darn close... But then that's not brushed
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Old 04-11-2009, 08:14 PM   #4717
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Newer chassis technology will always make for interesting debate, I personally think new cars with low cg and better geometry will have slight advantage over "tubbies" and the sort but then again I have yet to prove that.
If you are in a group that is that relaxed in the class fantastic, however the majority will look for every small advantage they can , be it spring rates on the suspension, how much or how little traction compound to use, cleaning the axles every run from carpet fibers, degreasing bearings and using "special lube" to get that extra inch of free roll etc. You understand what a large majority of racers will do to gain a slight advantage within the rules because you yourself have a TC5 for big events with a 21.5 correct?. I am not argueing or trying to flame but I am confused what you are concerned with if your club is good the way it is with the relaxed maintenance and lack of concern for that extra 100th of a second gain in performance from some trick you know then what is your issue as it seems other clubs have things running fairly smoothly as well from my prespective. Is it the national picture you do not agree with or the fact that someone in your club could conceivably run a 21.5 within the rules and dominate taking away that relaxed feel because you or others in the club would possbly no longer be able to compete on a level playing field?
I am just not quite understanding the issue here so this is why I ask.
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Old 04-11-2009, 08:58 PM   #4718
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No one in our club can run anything other than a 4-cell / 27T so that's not a concern at all. My "concern" is that I travel a fair bit to race, quite a bit more so than the average "club racer", and it would have been REALLY nice to have been able to run that original VTA spec competitively anywhere I went. Unfortunately this is not the case now. Everyplace I race that has VTA has adopted the 2s / 21.5 power option. I'd also like to run in a USVTA National if they would deign offer it on a rotating basis as to location. I don't mind a bit of travel, but if I'm schlepping to the midwest for a race it's going to be Cleveland in November where I can run a couple different classes (and, historically, it's the premier 1/12 race in the US) rather than to hell and gone to run one class for a day and a half. Now if it were somewhere within a 12 hour drive I'd do it in a heartbeat.

As it is, I'm faced with running one spec locally now (and wouldn't change it for the world) and another when I travel. An unfortunate reality of our club situation is that there is pretty much ZERO practice time available so it's not like I even have a chance to dial-in my alternate car. That said, we MAY offer both our Club-Spec AND a full USVTA spec classes next season. As it is, though, the number of folks that are interested in anything other than our Club-Spec is pretty limited (pretty much just me) and the "wanna do LiPo" guys may very well be satisfied with a 1s / 13.5 combo if it tests out as well as the 1s / 13.5 vs. 4-cell / 17.5 has tested out thus far in 1/12 Stock here.
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Old 04-11-2009, 09:11 PM   #4719
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Having run ALL of the combinations I'd say that a 4-cell / 19T would be a fair bit faster than a 2s / 21.5 combo, even with my minimal battery and motor maintenance. Now a 4-cell / 13.5 combo would probably be pretty darn close... But then that's not brushed
I tried the 4c / 19T combo while building my car to see what speeds were attainable - it's substantially faster than the 2s / 21.5 combo currently dominating the VTA scene. 4c / 13.5 might work if a gearing restriction were put into place to even things out, but I don't know if we'd want to open that can of worms... Any thoughts?
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Old 04-11-2009, 09:15 PM   #4720
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...well lets look at it from a outside looking in...Im looking to get into VTA..what do I need?

you need a 4wd touring car..any brand but try and get something that your local hobby shop will have parts for...or that everybody is familar with..

next decide on your budget and time..if you have alot of time and like to tinker with motors and batteries ..then get some 27t motors and a couple packs of 6/4 cell nimh...you can get them aroung $20 motors and $40 per pack...bot they will require maintanace ...and dont forget you will need a brush speedo..they are around $40-$100..buy new and save yourself a headache..and you will need at least 3 packs..and possible 2 chargers....
.or

if time is not on your side and maybe you have kids/family that race with you.... the Novak Havok 21.5 combo(motor and ESC) is around $150.00..but you are not going to do anything to it ..EVER..mild oil on the bearing every now and then...the Orion 2400 or 3800 are some of the most reliable lipos out there and very cheap..$40-$70...or even used for around $30 BUCKS...and the only thing to do to them is charge and balance...and one battery is all you need..period

next is a charger...if you go nimh than a good charger will run you $50 and you need a dicharge tray..$25...and if not known this keeps your batteries up to par..or

if lipo is your choice..the market is stacked with plenty...a Losi charger was around $80 with balancer...some are even cheaper than that..around $30..not the best but will work....

next is a radio w/rx and servo...any will work..DSM is recomended but FM works as well...a Futaba 2 channel w/rx and servo is around $55 new..a Spectrum w/rx and servo is around $150 new...

and of course your body and tires and rims..your choice...

so lets add it up

what I see is determine on the racer...if 27t/4cell is what you want to run just be aware that to stay in the game..not competitive just stay in the game...it will require you attention ...and will cost you a little more later ..

running lipo and brushless is going to cost you $200 bucks PERIOD!.. THAT THIS SUMMER AND NEXT SUMMER AND THE NEXT ONE...as long as you dont abuse your stuff...Ive had mine since 2007..and they are fine...and I race every weekend..lol

its not really a debate about whats faster or better...the real truth is if you have 4 cells and 27t motors thats great for you..but I dont see me or any of the 40+ guys running lipos getting nimh nothing...lipos and brushless is what has got eletric racing back on top...even 8th scale nitros are going lipo/bl...so lets be real about the fact that USVTA/VTA/TA/Trans-am is alive and well because of lipos/bl...half of us wouldnt run this class or any ele class without them...it will come a time when thats all to run...and nimh will be nicad...and so on...lets get the new guys off on the right foot to start with and maybe they will stay with it...
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Old 04-11-2009, 09:48 PM   #4721
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And PLEASE...tell me how it would possibly cost any more to run a car in stock Rubber TC than current VTA?
I have a bag of TakeOff 27 tires, and still have over 12 sets of 3300 and 4200 batteries A main racers from the two carpet tracks we used to run at 3 years ago. Those guys would run a set of the tires for maybe 10 runs then dump them. Stock motors...maybe 25 runs then they got rid of them. Their batteries kept getting tossed aside when some matcher would get internal resistance down and voltage up in a new batch, all of this to continue to try and gain .25 seconds per lap on their competition.

For TA that doesn't exist. I also don't think it exists for 17.5 either. There's no used TA wheels/tires to be had, there's no Lipo batteries being passed down, and there's definitely no Novak 21.5's being sold for 10 bucks.

Also in Stock rubber you had racers thinking they needed to buy the new 400 dollar chassis of the month to keep up with their competition. These days there's a run on 50 dollar TC3 rollers on rctech and ebay.

VTA is a spend once and run the crap out of it and maybe spend money on new tires twice a season. Maybe twice. At my tracks once a guy gets into TA he's spending more on bodies and paint during a season than batteries.
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Old 04-11-2009, 10:53 PM   #4722
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I have been in and out of this hobby for at lease 25+ years. Even before electronic speed controllers AND the origonal RC 10 aluminum gold tub car!!
The last time my son and I got out of the hobby was due to the brushed motors, Nicad, NiMh batteries, and the constant maintance to all. Plus having to have all the support equiptment, IE dischargers, com laythes ETC.
I had been doing 1/24 commerical grade slot cars up to June of last year when I visited the Strictly R/C track and saw the VTA cars running.
After asking about the rules and seeing that the LiPo/brushless combination could be run and that everyone hav to run the same tires and rims, I was hooked. I also stuck around and watched a guy from Indy run the same LiPo battery pack for a full 6 min of pratice and then the first qualifier on the SAME charge. THAT really sold me on th eLiPo/Brushless combination.
If this class had been 4 cell/27 brush motor ONLY. I would STILL be doing the slot cars.
As one that did the full maintance on batteries and motors back then the thought of having to go through that again was just not worth it. So now I have expanded the cars to include a 17.5/LiPo stock touring car and a newly purchased SC10 truck.

Bob Oaks one happy racer again.
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Old 04-11-2009, 11:48 PM   #4723
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My Havoc was the first new esc I've bought in years. TOP of the line brushed esc's (if you don't already have one) sell for $30-40 every single day on RC Tech from reputable sellers...so don't try to "enhance" your argument by inflating the REAL cost of the brushed option. Especially when it's "ok" to consider the dirt cheap wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy $30 LiPo chargers. Number of problems I've had with the, oh, twenty or so brushed and brushless esc's I've purchased used in the last 5 years? Exactly two, BOTH of which were promptly taken care of by the sellers. Contrast that with the number of BRAND NEW esc's on which I've been SCREWED by the mfr (even with a receipt and note from the track owner)...one (thanks for nothing LRP). I had to eat that one.

People will damn nearly give away 27T motors now, but get REALLY crazy and say you'd spend $15 for one shipped. IT WON'T NEED TO BE TURNED OR RE-BRUSHED IN A YEAR OF RACING...I've done it, so I know. One turn and re-brush a year, pretending I don't have a box of brushes, say $5 and 15 minutes. Hell, let's get absolutely insane and say I re-brush three times in a year. I'd still run a LOT of years before I added up to the price of my first $85 Novak 21.5 even if I "pay" myself pretty handsomely for the 15 minutes each time.

I made three 4-cell packs out of two used 6-cell packs. Total cost? $30. I only need ONE of those packs for my VTA car because I never take the battery out of it during race day. Actual battery cost? $10. IT WILL LAST ME AT LEAST ANOTHER SEASON BEYOND THE ONE IT RAN FOR ME THIS YEAR...and they were used batteries to begin with. The only "maintenance"? I'll make sure it doesn't get discharged to zero (which means I'll top it up every month or two during our off-season. Oh yeah, I use my Battery Dr. after every race day to equalize the cells. There's another $20 invested (if I already hadn't had one).

The economic arguments don't work. They only work if you foolishly bought into the notion that you really had to do anything at all to that equipment. My car which, again, won it's last two races is living proof that it ISN'T necessary. Period. Now, if LiPo / Brushless is your be all and end-all, so be it. I'm by no means anti- brushless or anti-LiPo. I use 'em in my cars as appropriate, I have 'em for my planes and my little helicopter. I will just never believe that it was the correct decision for VTA. My opinion, and one that I can back with as many (and more) facts than any arguments against.

Oh...total power cost for two years of VTA now? MAYBE $75. Plus the Battery Dr. and a couple pairs of brushes. That additional $125 is going to take me a LONG time to make up in brushes and 15 minute motor rebuilds. Oh yeah...and we're laughing our a$$e$ off every time we race.
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Old 04-11-2009, 11:56 PM   #4724
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I have a bag of TakeOff 27 tires, and still have over 12 sets of 3300 and 4200 batteries A main racers from the two carpet tracks we used to run at 3 years ago. Those guys would run a set of the tires for maybe 10 runs then dump them. Stock motors...maybe 25 runs then they got rid of them. Their batteries kept getting tossed aside when some matcher would get internal resistance down and voltage up in a new batch, all of this to continue to try and gain .25 seconds per lap on their competition.

For TA that doesn't exist. I also don't think it exists for 17.5 either. There's no used TA wheels/tires to be had, there's no Lipo batteries being passed down, and there's definitely no Novak 21.5's being sold for 10 bucks.

Also in Stock rubber you had racers thinking they needed to buy the new 400 dollar chassis of the month to keep up with their competition. These days there's a run on 50 dollar TC3 rollers on rctech and ebay.

VTA is a spend once and run the crap out of it and maybe spend money on new tires twice a season. Maybe twice. At my tracks once a guy gets into TA he's spending more on bodies and paint during a season than batteries.
I agree with your assessment of VTA, other than the new tires a couple times a year. The two season old tires on my Mustang will go another two seasons unless they rot out, the tread shows wear but nothing resembling worn out. And the bodies are tougher than the disposable ones used in TC anymore.

As far as Rubber TC, I guess that's something else we're doing wrong here. I don't think anybody bought more than two sets of tires for the entire season here, and then only if they cut a tire (I know JP and Bryan each have 3 spare tires after buying a set to replace A cut tire)...and they all looked like they were having plenty of fun. I don't think their enjoyment would have been enhanced at all. We run a spec tire (Jaco blues). The cost of building a USVTA-spec car will actually be a bit higher because the tires and wheels cost more to purchase initially and, to your point, no discounts to be had on 21.5 motors where 17.5 motors can be readily had for $50. Other than that they're really using the same stuff. Now I'll grant that at the HIGH end TC COULD be more expensive, but I stand by my assertion that USVTA-spec racing is pretty much the same price to build and run as Stock Rubber TC.
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Old 04-12-2009, 12:21 AM   #4725
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...another idea/solution I had, but it has never developed with our group is...scoring in REAR "Road Racing" fashion...

Run the 3 (or 4) combinations

4 cell 27t brushed
4 cell 17.5 brushless
2c Lipo/ 21.5
(and for those places who run) SilverCan 540/ LIPO

Score them seperate, have a CLASS Champion and a OVERALL Champion

The REAL road racers do 3 classes at the same time, and the guys in the lower class get a OVERALL finish. Most of the UPPER END Scoring Programs can run guys in their own class, but in the same main.

I had hoped by now the VTA would be 3 times the size it is locally. It came on HOT, but quickly fizzled. Now we generally only have 3-5 entries. (but all of our numbers are down)
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