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Old 04-10-2009, 02:31 PM   #4696
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Yeah, that's the line of thinking, "what can we do to make sure 4 cell won't be competitive?".
I'm sorry Rob, I'd honestly meant to add a "intended or not" to that. I'm quite certain nobody started out to design the track to create further disparity, but the end result ends up the same--a track design that very much caters to the strengths of one and minimizes the weakness while taking away the one small strength of the other.

Regardless...if we were being honest we knew 4-cell wasn't going to be competitive anyway, right
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Old 04-10-2009, 02:35 PM   #4697
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What I want to know about VTA is what tracks inforce the rules. I know there isn't a whole lot that goes into VTA and I dont care what you run its all on you driving for what laps you will get. my best lap on our track has been a 14.4 2s 4800 saddle pack Lipo with the Novak Havoc 21.5 the owner of our LHS/Track takes the controles and 2nd lap he turns a 13.0 yes Lipo has a advantage but do your tracks weigh the cars? Im not trying to start a flame war. I know im Legal last time I weighed in I was 1476g how many racers do you think are under it. intentionaly or not that makes a world of diffrence
Our club enforces the rules, using a scale and other appropriate measuring devices. Here the minimum is 1525g which was our original number--keeps the old tubby cars close to the hunt.
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Old 04-10-2009, 09:55 PM   #4698
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I saw a while ago some VTA guys were going to try out the 1s lipo with the 13.5 option.
Any feed back?
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Old 04-11-2009, 10:44 AM   #4699
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The "race director for a day" is an idea I brought here from my days racing 1/8 onroad with the Seattle Area Radio Control Auto Racers (SARCAR). They required that anyone running for club points had to sign up to race direct for a day during the season--which spreads the load out across the membership a bit.
What a great way to run a program. Thanks for the explanation. I might steal the idea at some point.
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Old 04-11-2009, 11:17 AM   #4700
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Sounds like perhaps it served as an equalizer re: any potential advantage of one bl esc vs. another, but further sounds like a track TAILOR MADE to give 2s LiPo/21.5 a further distinct advantage over anyone trying to run a 4-cell setup. Limit the top speed on the straightaway (thus negate the FDR limitation...makes it a non-issue, or at least less of one) and make the head of the straight a location where the added punch of the higher voltage pulls the gap on a 4-cell car which it then has less effective straight to try and make up.

Not sure why the charade is maintained...it's become laughable. Go ahead and follow ROAR's lead and kill the 4-cell combos for official USVTA racing. Clubs can (and, I'm sure, we will) continue with the option, but for USVTA it's had the stake run through it's little round cell heart.
I know the intent was to allow brushless tech into VTA, and I think its a good thing for the class to have the technology thats a lot more maintenance free. However it might be time to separate the 4 cell setup into a differrent class. It might even be time to do something completely new with the dying and remaining 4 cell/brushed technology, aside from VTA.
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Old 04-11-2009, 03:34 PM   #4701
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Look I'm not sure what the right answer is about 21.5/Lipo vs 4 cell.

But I can say this as someone that's recently gotten back into the hobby.

If I still had to cut comms, play with motor springs, have great batteries ... etc I wouldn't have gotten back in.

Say what you want about the speeds, even if you didn't allow 21.5/ lipo, the guys that put all the time into motors and money into the batteries would have an advantage.

The 21.5/lipo allows guys like me with a family to still race, work on my set up and driving and actually spend less time at the track then before. Without 21.5/lipo, I wouldn't be racing USVTA.

I know the class is supposed to be the cheap fun class and honestly, from someone that had to start over, 21.5/lipo is cheaper than 4 cell in the long run
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Old 04-11-2009, 05:06 PM   #4702
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Look I'm not sure what the right answer is about 21.5/Lipo vs 4 cell.

But I can say this as someone that's recently gotten back into the hobby.

If I still had to cut comms, play with motor springs, have great batteries ... etc I wouldn't have gotten back in.

Say what you want about the speeds, even if you didn't allow 21.5/ lipo, the guys that put all the time into motors and money into the batteries would have an advantage.

The 21.5/lipo allows guys like me with a family to still race, work on my set up and driving and actually spend less time at the track then before. Without 21.5/lipo, I wouldn't be racing USVTA.

I know the class is supposed to be the cheap fun class and honestly, from someone that had to start over, 21.5/lipo is cheaper than 4 cell in the long run
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Old 04-11-2009, 05:07 PM   #4703
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I guess I'm doing it all wrong then.

A motor that has had it's comm turned ONCE this year. Used motor I bought for nothing as part of a lot from some off-road kid who overheated them.

Battery pack(s) that I made from two used packs purchased here for $30/shipped. Turned the two 6-cell packs into three 4-cell packs. End up running one pack in the car all day--just keep recharging it and recharging it. Three packs, three racers, $10/each...and I guarantee you these packs will still be fine for next season too.

A POS car that has not even had the shocks opened since I dragged it from the edge of oblivion two years ago and mounted a Mustang body and VTA tires/wheels on it.

Dude, I'm racing for FREE. The only "maintenance" time I spend on the car is if I break something. Steering racks seem to be the weakness on that tubby TC4, but I've gotten pretty good at installing a new one.

Won the last two races. Go figure. The secret? I spent 8 minutes both times (well, 7:55 anyway) hitting my lines pretty darn well and drove the car. Something I'd been pretty hit-or-miss about in my VTA racing.

AND I got to spend a few extra hours more "family time" with the TON of cash (well...couple hundred bucks anyway)I didn't spend on brushless and Lipos. Or took the wife to a couple shows. Or...

The "answer" is for USVTA to get honest and kill the 4-cell "class" for official events. They can't be competitive no matter how much Doug, et al, want them to be. USVTA is no longer a "low cost" formula, it's now a "moderate cost" rubber tire touring class. The 4-cell format can continue to have a "home" at club-level racing, like here, as long as they're kept separate from the 2s/21.5 cars...or have guys that really don't care to be competitive. Clubs can certainly handle it as they see fit.
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Old 04-11-2009, 06:09 PM   #4704
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I guess I'm doing it all wrong then.
Scot everyone has to do what's best for them.

I'm not a fool, I know driving plays the 'biggest' part, but again, having spent years in tc when it was 6cell 27t at our track, I know for a fact that my motor was much faster after a local kid that had the equipment cut the comm, used a dyno to get the right springs and cut on the brushes.. etc.

So if I was running 27t and 4 cell with a group of equal drivers, then it wouldn't be the maintenance free racing you describe. Maybe you're that good of a driver, that it doesn't make a difference, but me a solid 'B main' driver with other 'B main' driver, every little thing helped.

Cost honestly depends on where you start. If you have old stuff then yes, 27t 4cell might be cheaper, but starting over, I know 21.5 Lipo is cheaper.
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Old 04-11-2009, 06:19 PM   #4705
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LOL...you've OBVIOUSLY not seen me drive.

The key is that I'm NOT that great of a driver, rarely win in fact. VERY rarely.

The biggest problem in RC for YEARS has been that people THINK they "need" to do all that stuff. Now for 6-cell I can certainly agree that regular motor maintenance is essential, that performance drops off dramatically, etc., but question how much of it was navel-gazing vs. actually doing something productive.

In this case, though, we're talking about 4-cell racing which is much much MUCH easier on brushes and comms. My 1/12 cars (about which I'm MUCH more serious, though no more successful...go figure) received pretty much the same "care" when we ran brushed motors as the VTA car does. I'd turn/rebrush the before our big "away" race at Minot (the mid point of our season here), and then one more time before our own 2-day (the last race of our season). I even timed the car before and after to see what I "gained", and it wasn't much. Pretty much lost any and all of the advantage the second corner I overdrove into and scrubbed off speed.
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Old 04-11-2009, 07:08 PM   #4706
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I think Im with Scottrik on this. My car is 4/27 and it wont get out of its own way. But none of that stuff has been done to it. Its an old 4 cell pack that was made from the surviving cells of an abused 6 cell off road pack. The comm hasnt been cut in forever. I will change the brushes when it quits running.

A car like that isnt in the same league with a 2c/21.5. Ever.
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Old 04-11-2009, 07:18 PM   #4707
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. USVTA is no longer a "low cost" formula, it's now a "moderate cost" rubber tire touring class.
I define cost by how much money it takes to get a car up and running, and race with it over a period of time. Do you do the same?
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Old 04-11-2009, 07:22 PM   #4708
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It might even be time to do something completely new with the dying and remaining 4 cell/brushed technology, aside from VTA.
Ah...the sweet irony of it all.

One of the reasons VTA was created was as a low-cost alternative to TC racing...to become a home for all the "obsolete" round cells and brushed motors. That lasted a little over 6 months before USVTA "grew" the class into brushless motors, then another 6 months and LiPo was implemented.

Invent another class from the bottom and get local support for it? Nah...been there, done that. We'll just keep running our "Club-Spec VTA" until we can't get round batteries anymore, or...

Had they been able to wait another 3-4 months the OBVIOUS LiPo solution would have presented itself in the form of the 1s LiPo. I know a couple folks here are interested in comparing our 4-cell / 27T cars with a 1s / 13.5 car. If it's anywhere nearly as close as I've found 1s / 13.5 and 4-cell 17.5 to be in 1/12 it should be a great alternative for folks wanting to get out of round cell entirely here...and would have been the PERFECT USVTA spec.
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Old 04-11-2009, 07:24 PM   #4709
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I think Im with Scottrik on this. My car is 4/27 and it wont get out of its own way. But none of that stuff has been done to it. Its an old 4 cell pack that was made from the surviving cells of an abused 6 cell off road pack. The comm hasnt been cut in forever. I will change the brushes when it quits running.

A car like that isnt in the same league with a 2c/21.5. Ever.
To be honest, I've never seen anyone say that it would be. What I have seen stated is that if you do do all of that motor magic and good batteries, then you can compete with a 24t/4 cell
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Old 04-11-2009, 07:27 PM   #4710
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I define cost by how much money it takes to get a car up and running, and race with it over a period of time. Do you do the same?
Yes. My "Club-Spec VTA" car costs pretty much ZERO to keep running. And running. And running. And it was built pretty much from leftover stuff, what wasn't "leftover" here was someone else's leftovers that they sold cheap.

No mistake, I've built a full-on USVTA-spec TC5R now with a Havoc / 21.5 and Orion 3200 LiPo (bought cheap, so we're trying to economize SOMEWHERE ) and look forward to running it in a USVTA Nats should it happen to drift somewhere to the west of central US. Heck, I look forward to running it PERIOD somewhere...cutting up our Club-Spec class would be a tough nut to crack as it's hard to argue with success.

And PLEASE...tell me how it would possibly cost any more to run a car in stock Rubber TC than current VTA? Folks are running pretty much the same chassis in both, the same esc's and batteries. The only difference is the motor, and there are far more applications for 17.5 motors so I'd argue VTA costs more now if you were to build cars today for both classes. The operating costs would be pretty much identical, the speeds have gotten darn close. The only REAL remaining difference is that the VTA cars look a lot more cool.
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