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Old 01-04-2008, 10:02 PM   #31
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Nice job, Andy. We can share "setup" info, ha ha.
Sounds great! Whats the hot tire to run?
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Old 01-04-2008, 10:32 PM   #32
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Good call on upping the weight penalty. If we had it to do over we'd have made the penalties larger...like close to double what they are now. I'd suggest making "housekeeping" easier by giving the same amount to 1st through 3rd though. We're five races into our championship season...JP and I are up to 300g (four penalties...we're pushing 3/4 pound now) and the racing is tightening up. We'd just hoped to have it tightened up sooner so we'll increase penalties next year.
The reason for the tiered weight penalties and scoring is to keep people from sandbagging. If someone is no longer in the fight for first, why take third place and get the same weight penalty as first but not the points? I know it's more to take note of, but since we'll have the notebook out keeping track of weights anyway...

The weight penalty was a fight! LOL!! Everyone was looking for less than your penalty of 70grams, not more.

Oh well, we'll see how the first season goes and we'll adjust accordingly. It's gonna be a fun year!!
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Old 01-05-2008, 06:46 AM   #33
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At this point, we will be talking about minimum weights and weight penalties with a maximum weight given, but to this point, the racing has been fair and fun without having to go to that length. I would think that a series with point would mandate that type of system, though, for sure. You don't want the same guys winning every week, and you want to keep the playing field level.
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Old 01-05-2008, 04:13 PM   #34
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Here she is!

A quick question, I didnt see the mention of tire sauce, paragon or otherwise, so Im to assume its not legal?

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Old 01-05-2008, 04:33 PM   #35
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A quick question, I didnt see the mention of tire sauce, paragon or otherwise, so Im to assume its not legal?

Nice!

Tire dope is up to house track rules. Here, Trackside mandates Jack The Gripper, and everywhere else is Paragon. It works just like it does on a set of CS27s. Actually quite a bit more traction than you would think.
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Old 01-05-2008, 07:06 PM   #36
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Nice!

Tire dope is up to house track rules. Here, Trackside mandates Jack The Gripper, and everywhere else is Paragon. It works just like it does on a set of CS27s. Actually quite a bit more traction than you would think.
Sounds great! Perhaps add that to the beta rules?

Where did you get the Vinyl for the Gurney car?
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Old 01-06-2008, 06:12 PM   #37
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Hey guys,
Did you do any brushless testing this weekend. Talk is getting hot here about starting a class. To be honest I'd rather see brushless than brushed but the track here wants to stick to your rules.
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Old 01-06-2008, 07:08 PM   #38
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Hey guys,
Did you do any brushless testing this weekend. Talk is getting hot here about starting a class. To be honest I'd rather see brushless than brushed but the track here wants to stick to your rules.
I may have some information about that, I know a few local guys went out and raced today with the "Florida" rules (13.5/LiPo). As soon as I hear back from them I'll post in here.
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Old 01-06-2008, 07:30 PM   #39
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Nothing yet, but I can tell you that it will definitely NOT be 13.5 and LiPo... that's Stock Rubber and would just be another problematic touring car class that we don't need. If we allow brushless in the near future, it will be something close to or slower than 27t with 4-cells, and possibly with a gearing/FDR limit.

Off the record, I'm thinking that 21.5 and LiPo may be a nice alternative, but I'm still trying to get a hold of a 21.5 to test with. I will be testing a 17.5 with 4-cells probably next weekend, but I'm afraid that the gearing needed will be impossible with many touring car chassis, which is why the 21.5/lipo combo might work better.


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Old 01-06-2008, 07:45 PM   #40
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The reason for the tiered weight penalties and scoring is to keep people from sandbagging. If someone is no longer in the fight for first, why take third place and get the same weight penalty as first but not the points? I know it's more to take note of, but since we'll have the notebook out keeping track of weights anyway...
Bob Stormer was the first guy who mentioned "sandbagging" (his proposed strategy was to place fourth for the first six races, then win the final four. NO ONE is sandbagging. In our club third is like a win, it's THAT close. In fact I've probably got more thirds than anyone.

Also, we don't have anything written down. Everybody knows how many "penalties" they've got and we weigh accordingly.


[QUOTE=killingtime;4039765]The weight penalty was a fight! LOL!! Everyone was looking for less than your penalty of 70grams, not more. [QUOTE]

Take it from our experience...if you're seeking to balance competition 70g doesn't ramp it up fast enough. My car carried 300g this week. JP, who is leading the championship also was slated to carry 300. He added almost 500 determined to slow himself down. STILL kicked everybody's ass. If I'd run laps today in the race like I did yesterday in practice I'd have had an EASY second...but my motor went south and I didn't have time to change it out.
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Old 01-06-2008, 09:08 PM   #41
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Apex,
What about 13.5/4 cell? I don't think Lipo is going to work against a 4-cell especially some of the higher ampdraw(25c-30c) batteries. Also I really doubt the 17.5 or 21.5 are going to supplant the 13.5 as I don't see either of them having the go on a road course which would then put people in a position to have a motor for one car in one class. Never a good scenario. We've been running TCs with 27t/13.5 NiMh/LiPo and they seem to run pretty close. I have to think at lower voltages they would be even closer.
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Old 01-07-2008, 07:08 AM   #42
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We are definitely going to test as many options as we can think of, for sure, but in this area on carpet, the 13.5 with a sintered rotor has proven to be quite a bit quicker than the 27t stock motors in all instances. And the LiPo/21.5 combo has already proven itself to be a fairly close option in the 4-cell oval racing community.

Right now, I think our biggest issues are gearing the brushless motors on 4-cells. Shaft cars, specifically may have issues getting the gearing needed to run those motors on 4-cells. Some cars can barely get to 13.5 gearing on 6-cells, so that will be an issue, for sure. Remember, this is a class built really around older motors, ESCs, cars and chassis, so we want to keep the cash outlay as small as possible, if we can.

We also don't want the motors to be TOO different if at all possible, to avoid the instant obsolescence of the motor selection that is building this class up. It does need to happen soon, though, because I fear that without some mandating, tracks will go off on their own and create their own individual brushless rules which would make this entire rules package moot.

Honestly, I personally would much rather see this class as a 21.5t brushless only with 2-cell LiPo SPEC class right off the bat, but the horse is already out of the barn on this one right now. I think it would be unfair to throw those combos out right out of the gate without giving the brushless testing every opportunity to happen correctly.



Trust me though, the 27t brushed formula, as much as I hate brushed motors right now, is working very well. With the price on the second hand market SO low right now, you can easily pick up a top shelf ESC and motor for under $70 combined, should you absolutely have to. Then again, smart racers will buy ESCs (if they need to) that will power both brushed and brushless motors.


Stay tuned.
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Old 01-10-2008, 07:38 AM   #43
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I don't have my body done yet, but I do have my tires, I am going to through them on with my 13.5 motor and a 4 cell and I think that will be perfect. I am hoping to finish out the body tonight though.

I will let you guys know what I think, I also have a 17.5, but I think that is too slow, plus a lot of people have the 13.5 already, so if you just couple it with 4 cell, it gives the guys who are killing thier cars in 1/12th scale something to jump into for minimal money.

I love the idea of this and wanted to bump this thread back to the top.
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Old 01-10-2008, 02:40 PM   #44
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The class, as it sits right now, is absolutely awesome. The cars are the right speed to produce brilliant door-to-door racing. All the drivers can handle the cars, and the cars can handle the motors. The last thing I'd want to see would be going to a faster motor combo, and the end of what is probably one of the best things to hit sedans in years.

One of the best things about this class is that anybody, new or old racer, can have fun and be competitive. The new guys are not overwhelmed, the old guys have a blast without all the headaches.

If you have not raced the class with a full heat yet, believe me, you don't notice a lack of speed. You notice the awesome racing
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Old 01-10-2008, 03:17 PM   #45
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I am all for it, just trying to work within the groups that we have, and it seems everyone has a 13.5 motor, but in 6 cell guys just literately destroy their cars.
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