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Old 03-05-2009, 11:36 AM   #4351
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Originally Posted by BIG JIM WOODMAN View Post
If you do not like the rules in this class why are you here? You can run rcgt class! I'm not trying to offend anyone but why visit here and try to change what this class has going.
I know, I know, shut the F up and go away. Thats the typical reply to anyone who brings up bodies, motors or batteries on here. But I really dig the idea of VTA as much as I loved SCCA Trans Am back in the day, back when real he-men drivers drove real cars! Admittedly I was only eight years old in 1970 but I knew the difference between a tunnel port and a Cleveland back then! Hated Penske yet respected Donahue, and Parnelli was the MAN!

It just seems that for some reason the USVTA seems a lil' illogical about some things like motor/batt combos and bodies. There's enuff '69-'70 Mustang and '70 AAR bodies now so you could get rid of the '65-'66 Fast back Mustangs, GT350's and Hemi Cudas. Hemi Cudas look stupid in VTA. GT350's definitely do not look right either. And I've read all about the testing that supposedly showed 21.5 LIPO and 17.5/27T four cell are all the same (as long as you have that very special motor and the best four cells known to mankind).

Most of the guys who tried to run 27T in VTA against 21.5 LIPO at our track quit after the first race, except me and another guy (he spent the $300.00 to $400.00 to upgrade). Flame away!
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Old 03-05-2009, 11:40 AM   #4352
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I know, I know, shut the F up and go away. Thats the typical reply to anyone who brings up bodies, motors or batteries on here. But I really dig the idea of VTA as much as I loved SCCA Trans Am back in the day, back when real he-men drivers drove real cars! Admittedly I was only eight years old in 1970 but I knew the difference between a tunnel port and a Cleveland back then! Hated Penske yet respected Donahue, and Parnelli was the MAN!

It just seems that for some reason the USVTA seems a lil' illogical about some things like motor/batt combos and bodies. There's enuff '69-'70 Mustang and '70 AAR bodies now so you could get rid of the '65-'66 Fast back Mustangs, GT350's and Hemi Cudas. Hemi Cudas look stupid in VTA. GT350's definitely do not look right either. And I've read all about the testing that supposedly showed 21.5 LIPO and 17.5/27T four cell are all the same (as long as you have that very special motor and the best four cells known to mankind).

Most of the guys who tried to run 27T in VTA against 21.5 LIPO at our track quit after the first race, except me and another guy (he spent the $300.00 to $400.00 to upgrade). Flame away!
It's still lots of fun ! any way you look at it!
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Old 03-05-2009, 11:44 AM   #4353
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I know, I know, shut the F up and go away. Thats the typical reply to anyone who brings up bodies, motors or batteries on here. But I really dig the idea of VTA as much as I loved SCCA Trans Am back in the day, back when real he-men drivers drove real cars! Admittedly I was only eight years old in 1970 but I knew the difference between a tunnel port and a Cleveland back then! Hated Penske yet respected Donahue, and Parnelli was the MAN!

It just seems that for some reason the USVTA seems a lil' illogical about some things like motor/batt combos and bodies. There's enuff '69-'70 Mustang and '70 AAR bodies now so you could get rid of the '65-'66 Fast back Mustangs, GT350's and Hemi Cudas. Hemi Cudas look stupid in VTA. GT350's definitely do not look right either. And I've read all about the testing that supposedly showed 21.5 LIPO and 17.5/27T four cell are all the same (as long as you have that very special motor and the best four cells known to mankind).

Most of the guys who tried to run 27T in VTA against 21.5 LIPO at our track quit after the first race, except me and another guy (he spent the $300.00 to $400.00 to upgrade). Flame away!
No flaming necessary, as you pretty much summed it up, but it was just all in the presentation. You're correct that if you want to be really competitive in USVTA you need to go 21.5/lipo. With a $130 Havoc combo and a $35 lipo it's not the big deal it used to be.

I'm actually totally with you on the bodies -- I'd like to see it opened up to more '60s/early '70s-era race cars, and the new HPI 'vette body is a perfect example. The HPI Pantera is awesome as well. However, the rules are the rules, it's a benevolent dictatorship, and I don't see them changing any time soon.
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Old 03-05-2009, 12:37 PM   #4354
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I got your shut the F up. What are you retarded? no need to talk that way.If you were born in 62 you should know better.
EASY big guy...I'm pretty sure what he was saying was that his impression of the usual message to folks who rock the boat is "shut the F up". He wasn't telling YOU to do so.

Take a DEEP breath, re-read his post and you'll see what it says.

I'll agree to disagree with him on the bodies (as far as allowing RCGT bodies, no matter how cool), but he's hit the nail SQUARE on the head re: the short-sighted push to adopt 21.5 and LiPo.

Though we had no idea a year ago, wouldn't it be cool to have tried the SMC 1s LiPo and 13.5 vs. the 4-cell 17.5's? THAT would have been a FAR closer match. Give up about 25% in voltage but gain about 25% in kv? How cool could THAT have been, but it's too late to put the toothpaste back into the tube. If "we'd" have not been in such an all-fired hurry all it would have taken was six measley months to come up with a closer solution more in line with the original intent of the class.
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Old 03-05-2009, 01:17 PM   #4355
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There is nothing to prevent any track from altering rules to allow other cars to race against fully legal VTA cars. Just realize that when running the VTA class this way you can detract from what has made this class succesful at many locations and it really becomes an outlaw class.

I would suggest to anyone who thinks a specific battery/motor combo is comparable to the current legal VTA options, to try it out at their local track and let us know what the results are. There may truly be better power options, but without some good data, many of these posts become redundant. Maybe 4-cell 13.5 or a 1-cell lipo in a VTA car is a good option. But would these other options need a FDR limit? Will they work well on a large outdoor track vs. small indoor track? Will they bring new racers or drive away old racers? Will they be inexpensive for novice and existing racers? Are they the same performance over a 5 minute or 8 minute race?

A point that sometimes is overlooked is that the creators of the USVTA rules did test various motor/battery combos to come up with the current rules. We can endlessly debate the validity of the choices, but it really doesn't add to the discussion without real world data. So suffice it to say that we should all know what the rules are at this point and that there are no current plans to change them. While it may seem a bit harsh (even though the intent isn't), having well defined rules that stay constant for an extended amount of time really helps the growth of any r/c class.

In case you need to locate the current rules, please see my signature at the bottom of this post.
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Old 03-05-2009, 01:17 PM   #4356
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I got your shut the F up. What are you retarded? no need to talk that way.If you were born in 62 you should know better.

Chill dude.

I tried to communicate that I thought YOU were the one telling me to shut the F up and go away. I would NEVER tell ANYONE to do that on a public forum. If I inadvertantly hurt your feelings, I apologize, that was not my intention at all. And yes I probably am retarded because I actually care about RC racing, fairness, scientific methodology, right and wrong, blah, blah, blah, yadda, yadda...
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Old 03-05-2009, 01:35 PM   #4357
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Originally Posted by IndyRC_Racer View Post
There is nothing to prevent any track from altering rules to allow other cars to race against fully legal VTA cars. Just realize that when running the VTA class this way you can detract from what has made this class succesful at many locations and it really becomes an outlaw class.

I would suggest to anyone who thinks a specific battery/motor combo is comparable to the current legal VTA options, to try it out at their local track and let us know what the results are. There may truly be better power options, but without some good data, many of these posts become redundant. Maybe 4-cell 13.5 or a 1-cell lipo in a VTA car is a good option. But would these other options need a FDR limit? Will they work well on a large outdoor track vs. small indoor track? Will they bring new racers or drive away old racers? Will they be inexpensive for novice and existing racers? Are they the same performance over a 5 minute or 8 minute race?

A point that sometimes is overlooked is that the creators of the USVTA rules did test various motor/battery combos to come up with the current rules. We can endlessly debate the validity of the choices, but it really doesn't add to the discussion without real world data. So suffice it to say that we should all know what the rules are at this point and that there are no current plans to change them. While it may seem a bit harsh (even though the intent isn't), having well defined rules that stay constant for an extended amount of time really helps the growth of any r/c class.

In case you need to locate the current rules, please see my signature at the bottom of this post.
I was kinda THERE for the original motor/battery testing for VTA. As far as subsequent "testing" it has become EXCEEDINGLY clear that the 21.5/LiPo is superior to ALL but the freshest 4-cell and hotest 27T (rebuilt every round) going. And I'm not entirely convinced even that extreme measure is truly competitive.

As far as testing/proposing alternate power strategies...as I said, the toothpaste is out of the tube. There'd be a $hitstorm of unholy proportions if they tried to supercede 21.5/2s LiPo now, and I'd say rightly so. Right or wrong, it's what we're stuck with as a whole.

As far as local rules, you are 100% correct and that's exactly what we've done here in our little corner of heaven. We have stayed the course with 4-cell/27T brushed as our only option and call it "Club-Spec VTA". For our 2-day event this past weekend we offered both the Club-Spec for our loyal local racers and a full-on USVTA-spec for racers traveling in from out of area and are looking at offering both on a regular basis for our club events in our '09-10 season.

Also note that I DID NOT suggest 4-cell/13.5 as an option. What I suggested was combining the existing 4-cell/27T and 4-cell/17.5 options with a 1s LiPo/13.5 option. Since I've got 1s LiPos for my 1/12 cars you can BET I will be testing this option. If it's as close as I'm pretty sure it will be we (our club) WON'T need to break TA into two separate classes. That would be a win as far as we're concerned. Still wouldn't give us a chance to practice with the 2s LiPo/21.5 combo for when we hit "away" races, but that shouldn't be such a big difference to overcome.
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Old 03-05-2009, 03:06 PM   #4358
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If i could change the sands of time, I would have moved up the release of the 3.7 1 cell lipo. If that had been available, I'm sure it would have been the choice for lipo power. Unfortunately, we are where we are. There was enough complaining when 17.5 4 cell and 21,5 lipo were allowed.
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Old 03-05-2009, 04:54 PM   #4359
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No, but very similar body styles were and that's as close as it gets.
Remember me saying that I liked the HPI current body Mustang GT. Not that new bodies should be allowed, but that it looks more like a 70 Mustang than the Parma or Pegasus shells do. When I look at it I cant help but think that it would pass for the vintage car. Especially when painted up right. Looks like it would fit right in.

Quote:
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I was kinda THERE for the original motor/battery testing for VTA. As far as subsequent "testing" it has become EXCEEDINGLY clear that the 21.5/LiPo is superior to ALL but the freshest 4-cell and hotest 27T (rebuilt every round) going. And I'm not entirely convinced even that extreme measure is truly competitive.
While I will agree with you on this MOST of the time. I do know a couple of chaps at my local track who are pretty efficient with the 4/27 powertrain. I think they sprinkle pixie dust on it or something.
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Old 03-05-2009, 04:57 PM   #4360
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If i could change the sands of time, I would have moved up the release of the 3.7 1 cell lipo. If that had been available, I'm sure it would have been the choice for lipo power. Unfortunately, we are where we are. There was enough complaining when 17.5 4 cell and 21,5 lipo were allowed.
Theres more winds available now too. Like a 15.5 turn motor. Not from Novak, but there is one out there.
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Old 03-05-2009, 05:27 PM   #4361
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Default Motor votes...

So a quick glance at Tower nets three motors: Novak, LRP/Associated and Tekin...anyone have any favorites? The Havoc combo looks like good bang for the buck, but the ESC is ugly and I have always had good luck with LRP products...and the Tekin just looks cool...

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Old 03-05-2009, 05:41 PM   #4362
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So a quick glance at Tower nets three motors: Novak, LRP/Associated and Tekin...anyone have any favorites? The Havoc combo looks like good bang for the buck, but the ESC is ugly and I have always had good luck with LRP products...and the Tekin just looks cool...

-M
Well, if we're talking about a 21.5 for USVTA the Novak is the only legal motor.
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Old 03-05-2009, 05:48 PM   #4363
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Default ah, thanks...

yeah, it's right there on my link to the rules...silly me...
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Old 03-05-2009, 06:16 PM   #4364
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Default I need that

Hey, I need some of that pixie dust stuff.
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Old 03-06-2009, 04:10 AM   #4365
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Here is an Idea !...work the rules to fit your track....If you feel that 4cell/17.5 or 27t is the way to get guys to your track (even though its more exspensive in the long run) and you have a few guys that are running lipo/21.5 then change the FDR rule at your track! This thread is full of senseless arguments about motor/batt combo's,Bodies and motor brands.....The fact is it works the way it is.....The only guys that normally complain about the combo's are 1/12th and Pan guys who are either tryin to dump there old 4cells and 27t junk to noob's or they just want to do somethin with stuff since its pretty useless stuff now...Or they have 1S lipos that they want to run in something else....Can anyone post the positive's of this class...At our track we have seen leaps and bounds in growth we are averaging more racers in VTA than most tracks get at an event last week we were at 21 VTA racers.....Thats typical for us about once a month...We are picking up at least 2-3 new racers a month....We have all motor/Batt combos represented and guess what I havent heard 1 complaint of course its kind of hard to hear over the laughter and good times bieng had.....The most popular quote's at are track: "Thats a Blast" and "That class looks like alot of FUN".....Remember when you raced cause it was just fun.....So please just leave it be....
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