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Old 12-09-2008, 10:43 PM   #3571
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Originally Posted by SWTour View Post
My son uses a HPI Pro 2, and the ORION 2400, 3200, 3400 style batteries fit just fine. The Yeah Racing 3200 also fits just fine.

With ours since we harly ever take the pack out of the car, he has the spektrum receiver mounted to the top of the battery. (We wrap our antenna wire around a 2" tall by 3/4" wide piece of lexan and fasten that to the receiver w/ double sided tape)
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Originally Posted by IndyRC_Racer View Post
I've bought an Orion 2400 lipo ($35 Tower Hobbies) to try in my VTA car (and Mini-Cooper).
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I love those Yeah 3200s. I call them my Chea-Pos.
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Thanks Joe! How are you mounting the battery to the chassis??? Since I plan to do NOTHING to it on race days (yanno, busy running the races and all) can it be shoo-gooed to the chassis???
It is probably worth noting that the USVTA rules DO specify ROAR-approved LiPo batteries for those who use "Lithium technology" batteries. As far as I can tell, neither the Orion 2400 nor the Yeah Racing 3200 are ROAR approved. I just referred to the list on the ROAR site at http://www.roarracing.com/approvals/lipobattery.php

ALSO...for those advocating more or less permanent mountings for your batteries...ROAR also mandates charging batteries in a containment device should a "rapid disassembly" event take place. If your containment device is large enough to accomodate your car you're golden. If your track allows charging LiPos outside a containment device that's their business, but be aware that many tracks do not (ROAR-insured tracks can't, in fact). My own opinion is that USVTA should follow ROAR's lead on this point...we require ROAR-approved batteries, let's also require ROAR-approved charging procedures (including max voltage, etc).
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Old 12-09-2008, 11:17 PM   #3572
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I have to admit, the one MAJOR flaw I see in the US VTA rules are the implementation of the OPEN ROAR Lipo rules.

That ONE simple rule is enough to hurt this cost effective class. The difference in some of the HIGH end lipos, both in Price and Performance itself goes against the basic principals of the class strutures desire to provide an economy class of racing.

As to the LIPO Sacks -- I have mixed feelings on the rules with those as well. ROAR made a ruling on those based on HYPE and FEAR, and personally I feel at the tracks (both indoor and outdoor) I've held races at, much safer seeing the batteries charging flat on a table in PLAIN VIEW. We've had a couple 'user errors' with chargers that caused battery swelling, and physically SAW the swelling occur, and they were pulled from the charger in time to prevent any safety issues. Had they been closed up in a LIPO BAG they could have cause an issue.
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Old 12-09-2008, 11:42 PM   #3573
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much safer seeing the batteries charging flat on a table in PLAIN VIEW. We've had a couple 'user errors' with chargers that caused battery swelling, and physically SAW the swelling occur, and they were pulled from the charger in time to prevent any safety issues. Had they been closed up in a LIPO BAG they could have cause an issue.
No, had they been in a LiPo bag they would have been contained had there been an incident and safety wouldn't have been dependent on someone spotting that the battery was swelling which is EXACTLY the case you are describing. Unlike Sub-C's, there's no tell-tale hisses or clicks (because there are no vents) to draw one's attention away from the bull session they're deeply engrossed in. Your racers were fortunate someone looked up and noticed them--that doesn't always happen.

I'm ALL for LiPo in RC, I'm also ALL FOR minimally difficult to implement safety nets surrounding their inclusion in our racing. That said, having had a Sub-C explode in my home this past summer (a first for me!) I wouldn't be at all opposed to requiring NiMH batteries be charged in a LiPo sack (or some similar) as a ballistic containment device. The key difference is that once a Sub-C pops it's done, when a LiPo goes you've got a flaming napalm-spraying geyser.
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Old 12-10-2008, 06:19 AM   #3574
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I only run my cheap batts at the local track. We've been pushing to get Yeah! to get approval and word was supposed to be coming soon. I do have an SMC that I run regularly and would run at a sanctioned event.
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Old 12-10-2008, 07:41 AM   #3575
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Scott, how do you feel about warming LiPo's during charging?
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Old 12-10-2008, 07:43 AM   #3576
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Video of last week's Trans AM Main race at Underground RC in Chicago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZbMl9uCKb8
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Old 12-10-2008, 08:17 AM   #3577
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End result, you can't regulate "spirit"
amen bother.

At my track there is one racer with obvious advantage. His car has the top speed over everyone and even on my best runs I can only stay on the same lap...this gets old and killed my 'spirit'. The field is not level, even w/ all the rules to even the field and the spirit rule....
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Old 12-10-2008, 08:34 AM   #3578
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At my track there is one racer with obvious advantage. His car has the top speed over everyone and even on my best runs I can only stay on the same lap...this gets old and killed my 'spirit'. The field is not level, even w/ all the rules to even the field and the spirit rule....
Then it's up to your race director to slow him down, either through gearing or weight. That's part of this class, too.



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The key difference is that once a Sub-C pops it's done, when a LiPo goes you've got a flaming napalm-spraying geyser.
Wow, I didn't expect that type of FUD from you, Scott. Have you ever seen this flaming geyser outside of YouTube? Fact is, it doesn't happen from over charging these packs. The next ROAR-approved LiPo fireshow I hear about will be the first.
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Old 12-10-2008, 08:35 AM   #3579
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Scott, how do you feel about warming LiPo's during charging?
From a safety standpoint? Practical exercise (can we actually effectively warm a battery through)? Competitive advantage standpoint? "Within the spirit" of VTA? All kinds of views.

Safety...the number I've seen (not saying it's the correct number, but I trust Danny at SMC pretty well) is 140 degrees. As long as we're not exceeding that I don't have a problem. I think it adds one more thing to check, though, because racers have NEVER been known to use much common sense and some, unfortunately, use less than others.

Practical exercise? I've seen all kinds of "solutions" proposed, the most common of which seems to be the reptile warming pads. Those don't heat up very much, etc. Now lets think about how much energy it takes to cook a steak up to 140 degrees INTERNAL TEMPERATURE on a pan. Those lizard warmers (or even tire warmers) aren't producing anywhere near that kind of energy. Would they eventually warm a battery through? I'm sure they would. Will it take a while? Yes it will. Longer than most racers would think, especially because the plastic hard cases we're using on our batteries serves as an insulating barrier as well. I DO think it's only a matter of time before some enterprising battery company sandwiches a temperature probe between cells that can connect to the temp probe input on common chargers. I'm a bit surprised it hasn't happened already. The most effective way to warm a pack through is to give it a good hard discharge on, say, a GFX at 35 amps. The warmer would then serve more to slow or eliminate the cooling of the battery, not really warm it up.

Competitive advantage? I suppose. The difference in performance Danny was finding with his testing was pretty slim. Would that make a difference in a power-limited class like VTA? Maybe more so than others. How many drivers are really of a caliber that it would make a difference in their performance? No where NEARLY so many as would like to think it would. If your name is Blackstock or Baker...

Within the spirit of VTA? Here it really IS opinion. I'm not in favor of it, but it goes back to what equipment are we willing to come right out and say "This is not allowed".
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Old 12-10-2008, 08:38 AM   #3580
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Wow, I didn't expect that type of FUD from you, Scott. Have you ever seen this flaming geyser outside of YouTube? Fact is, it doesn't happen from over charging these packs. The next ROAR-approved LiPo fireshow I hear about will be the first.
As a matter of fact I have. Out at the flying field. VERY impressive sight. Made me a believer that LiPo sacks aren't a bad thing at all. I've got two of 'em. Believe it or not, they're neither expensive nor overly painful to use.

Not familiar with FUD, though.
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Old 12-10-2008, 08:50 AM   #3581
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Well, the "flying" guys are known to have historically used the cheapest uncased Chinese LiPo cells they could find, and in the past, this has shown to be dangerous. The packs used in cars and planes/helis are not even similar in construction anymore.

Still, FUD with LiPo technology runs rampant.
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Old 12-10-2008, 08:52 AM   #3582
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Some great points about charging Lipos and ROAR approved batteries. Here are the links to the ROAR approved battery lists:

Roar Approved NiCd & NIHM - http://www.roarracing.com/approvals/sbattery.php

Roar Approved Lithium Technology - http://www.roarracing.com/approvals/lipobattery.php

--------------------------

Here is a Lipo Charging Sack at Tower Hobbies ($24) - http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...ARCH=lipo+sack

As for the Orion 2400 I made an assumption that it was an approved battery since it is a legal battery for Tamiya TCS racing. I've contacted Orion and hopefully they are in the approval process. In the meantime I will consider it illegal per the USVTA rules. Still, can't beat the price though.
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Old 12-10-2008, 09:09 AM   #3583
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Well, the "flying" guys are known to have historically used the cheapest uncased Chinese LiPo cells they could find, and in the past, this has shown to be dangerous. The packs used in cars and planes/helis are not even similar in construction anymore.

Still, FUD with LiPo technology runs rampant.
The pack involved was a name-brand pack.

The car LiPo mfr's wouldn't be making all the caveats and warnings if they didn't know what COULD happen. As it is, they very much do know. Chances of a problem with the batteries themselves seem to be going down with improvements in technology, etc., but user error is the bugaboo they worry about more than anything. We won't even go into intentional user misuse.

Opinons are like bellybuttons, we all have 'em. My opinion is that LiPo sacks are neither expensive nor egregiously onerous to utilize. Fact: you WILL be required to use one at any ROAR-sanctioned event or at events put on by ROAR-insured clubs.
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Old 12-10-2008, 09:17 AM   #3584
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It is probably worth noting that the USVTA rules DO specify ROAR-approved LiPo batteries for those who use "Lithium technology" batteries. As far as I can tell, neither the Orion 2400 nor the Yeah Racing 3200 are ROAR approved. I just referred to the list on the ROAR site at http://www.roarracing.com/approvals/lipobattery.php

ALSO...for those advocating more or less permanent mountings for your batteries...ROAR also mandates charging batteries in a containment device should a "rapid disassembly" event take place. If your containment device is large enough to accomodate your car you're golden. If your track allows charging LiPos outside a containment device that's their business, but be aware that many tracks do not (ROAR-insured tracks can't, in fact). My own opinion is that USVTA should follow ROAR's lead on this point...we require ROAR-approved batteries, let's also require ROAR-approved charging procedures (including max voltage, etc).
Thanks Scott for the link! Man, this old dogg needs to learn new tricks QUICK....LOL

I was gonna stay old school (27T/4Cell) but looks like I'd be the only one left around here.....daNG youNgInS.....
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Old 12-10-2008, 09:47 AM   #3585
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Then it's up to your race director to slow him down, either through gearing or weight. That's part of this class, too.
Yes it is.... yet it aint happened. the car passes all tech rules (wieght, gearing)...

I guess I'll go buy a brushless $ystem to keep up w/ the Jone's....which IMO is not in the spirit of an the class/'even field' but it's legal and I don't think I'll get smacked from behind for it. thanks for all the help and feedback. lol.
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