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Old 01-28-2008, 09:02 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by Thugs Bunny View Post
Apex,
We're running at the Michiana track, good ozite with a solid groove. It's a mix of cars, mostly Xrays and TC3/4's. I think most of the setups are pretty close to stock rubber/carpet. I know mine started with a foam/carpet setup and is now about as soft as I can make it. It sounds like you guys are not having real traction/setup issues. We are literally driving on ice with the exception of a couple guys. It's fun to watch but tough to drive.
I was supposed to go to that race but didn't make it...

Anyway most likely there is something majorly wrong with your car or setup. The way we run with 4cell and 27T it's so slow just about any setup in theory could work...heck even a foam setup with adjusted ride height and droop.

My suggestion is as follows.

Take whatever car you have...TC4, Xray, TC3, whatever and go to that companies website. Copy any rubber tire setup on there and your Trans Am car should work. If you car was working well in regular TC form then slapping the TA stuff on and adjusting your ride height/droop will be fine.

My Mi3 has a setup that is for very high bite carpet. Cars were traction rolling in 13.5 Rubber that day. All I did was add the tires, body, reset droop and ride height and race.

I like to keep the racing simple and work on my cars very little if at all for TA. Let us know if you still have problems.
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Old 01-29-2008, 09:55 AM   #317
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I'll echo Nexus' comment. Run the KIT standard rubber tire setup and bolt everything up and race.

My FT TC3 is running the manual "Front One-Way" setup on it, with only minor changes. The rear wheelbase is shorter to fit the body better, I prefer front and rear swaybars on the car, and... uh, yeah, that's it. It's an A-main car wherever it has been.

Don't overcomplcate this class. It's very easy to make the car easy to drive.


For those of you complaining about the brushed vs. brushless lap times at Michiana, you need to get your cars working better before passing judgment on the speeds of the motors. I looked at all of the lap times from Sunday, and they are ALL over the map for everyone. It's not the motors doing that.

Yes, the brushless motor is easier to drive fast, but it's not the faster choice right now. They are very even where it countsówith the lap times. They each have a strong suit and weak points. Get your rubber tire setups working properly, and I'm sure you'll all be satisfied with the comparisons.



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Old 01-29-2008, 11:01 AM   #318
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Default Michiana Vintage Cars...

I'm gonna get involved, play around with a few things this week, do some tinkering with some of the guys... See what I can find.

Asking around, I've come across some variances that interested me. Well, actually, a lot of things interested me.

I think Friday night will be interesting- I'll report what I find out...

PS: Frank- expect a phone call later. Oh, and "Thugs Bunny"?
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Old 01-29-2008, 11:56 AM   #319
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Ken,
So you're saying raise the roll center and add droop?
No, lower the roll center. The further the rc is from the cog, the more leverage the cog has on the rc to roll the car. Yes add droop so when the car rolls there is enough down travel in the shocks to keep the tires on the ground. There are a few other things as well.

I am assuming from Tod's post that this is Frank, if so bring your car over to me and we'll do some experimenting. I'll offer my help to Mike as well.
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Old 01-29-2008, 02:39 PM   #320
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the video is here if anyone is interested in seeing it.

http://www.michianarc.com/index.php?...tpage&Itemid=1

Andy,

i'll talk to you about set up friday.
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Old 01-29-2008, 02:48 PM   #321
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I would lower the roll centers on the car. I'm using a rubber tire setup from the Novak race for the TC5, and the hinge pins are in the lowest setting (lowest roll center). Also, you should not be afraid to run 3-4* of toe in in the rear. I'm running 3* right now, and I have run as much as 4* if the track is super green.

Also, I have noticed best results with both Jack and Paragon when I let the tires set for at least one heat AFTER they have been wiped off. The car is not so squirrely the 1st minute.
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Old 01-29-2008, 02:58 PM   #322
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the video is here if anyone is interested in seeing it.

http://www.michianarc.com/index.php?...tpage&Itemid=1

Andy,

i'll talk to you about set up friday.
The cars look fine to me. I didn't really see anything spinning out. Don't you guys normally run foam TC down there? If so could that be the difference? You're just used to foam tire traction? Just wondering.

It was a little chaotic but in general the cars did not appear to be spinning out.

Hopefully you guys figure it out. The class is a blast and the racing is generally very close. Robk can tell you more since he's the current TA master at our Track LOL :P
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Old 01-29-2008, 07:07 PM   #323
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The cars look fine to me. I didn't really see anything spinning out. Don't you guys normally run foam TC down there? If so could that be the difference? You're just used to foam tire traction? Just wondering.

It was a little chaotic but in general the cars did not appear to be spinning out.

Hopefully you guys figure it out. The class is a blast and the racing is generally very close. Robk can tell you more since he's the current TA master at our Track LOL :P
I can tell you first hand that some of the cars were very loose. I was driving the white camaro after the main, and it would spin out off power, but give it a little throttle, and it was hooked up. Yes we run foam TC over here, but most of the people in that race class, don't run a TC (only about 3 of them run in the normal TC class that I can think of off the top of my head). I haven't diven miket3's car with the new set-up yet, but it looks a lot better from when I last driven it with the old set-up (before I told him to change things )
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Old 01-29-2008, 08:06 PM   #324
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it would spin out off power, but give it a little throttle, and it was hooked up.
This should actually be pretty easy to fix. It implies (to me) that in softening it up you're getting too much weight transfer to the front (unloading the rear) under deceleration/braking. First try to "stiffen" your front end a bit by standing the shocks up more vertically and/or go to a heavier shock oil in front to slow the transfer down. Stiffer front springs would be a more direct approach but you might start pushing mid- and late-corner.

Next, look at adding more droop in the rear which will keep weight on the rear tires longer in the deceleration/braking phase.

Another thing we played with a bit was the inner rear hinge pin angle. The more "in" the front of the hinge the more steering (outboard wheel steers "out", thus wanting to hook the car) is created as the outboard suspension compresses. This compression was exagerated, again, by going to softer springs so what worked great when stiff for foam now creates a corner-entry "loose" condition. Try rear blocks or settings (JP's X-ray is REALLY easy to adjust this, my TC3's and TC4's are a bitch) that take the front of these pins out closer to or even with the rear of the pins (more parallel to the chassis centerline). You will need to adjust your static rear toe after this change as you are taking toe out at the hinge so you might need to add it at the upright to keep the same static toe.

All these have proven to correct the situation you describe when we've had it here.
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Old 01-29-2008, 08:59 PM   #325
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I do not have a Trans Am car(yet)...but I love watching you guys race. I race 13.5 at Trackside...and see them race on the carpet. Jason Sams of RCCA has a blog on "What do you want more of?" on their website.

I said: "Do an article on the new on-road class....U.S. Trans Am. Started in my area(WI and IL) and is really growing. Here's the website:

http://www.usvintagetransam.com/"

He said: "Thanks guys, I value your input. The Trans Am class sounds cool. I checked out the website and it looks like you guys are having a lot of fun!"

Hopefully they run some sort of article for you guys.
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Old 01-29-2008, 11:21 PM   #326
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Good job guys. This is easily going to be the biggest class running at SIR.
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Old 01-30-2008, 09:08 AM   #327
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We've instituted a new rule for the Vintage TA class:

5.1.4 Motor Noises.

Whoever is in the lead must make appropriate motor noises and squealing tire sounds for the entire period during which they are in the lead. Such noises MUST be capable of being heard at a distance of not less than 100 feet. Should the noise-making leader be overtaken in the course of the race the new leader must then make similar noises while the former leader continues to make noise. This continues, anyone who HAS led or IS leading must be making motor sounds for the remainder of the heat.

Keeps it light, constant reminder that it's ALL fun. We were laughing our a$$es off.
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Old 01-30-2008, 09:28 AM   #328
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We've instituted a new rule for the Vintage TA class:

5.1.4 Motor Noises.

Whoever is in the lead must make appropriate motor noises and squealing tire sounds for the entire period during which they are in the lead. Such noises MUST be capable of being heard at a distance of not less than 100 feet. Should the noise-making leader be overtaken in the course of the race the new leader must then make similar noises while the former leader continues to make noise. This continues, anyone who HAS led or IS leading must be making motor sounds for the remainder of the heat.

Keeps it light, constant reminder that it's ALL fun. We were laughing our a$$es off.
I really think a small piece of baseball card dragging on the rear wheels would be all that's needed!
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Old 01-30-2008, 09:40 AM   #329
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I really think a small piece of baseball card dragging on the rear wheels would be all that's needed!
Chip a tooth on the spur gear. It should last long enough to howl through the main.

My home track is kicking around starting a class of TA. Been doing my homework on here, looks pretty cool. I run rubber/tc normally. My car is pretty dialed, so hopefully it's pretty close for Trans Am. Great input guys.
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Old 01-30-2008, 10:40 AM   #330
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Chip a tooth on the spur gear. It should last long enough to howl through the main.

My home track is kicking around starting a class of TA. Been doing my homework on here, looks pretty cool. I run rubber/tc normally. My car is pretty dialed, so hopefully it's pretty close for Trans Am. Great input guys.
I'm not doubting the guys having traction issues but we don't have any problems at our track. Guys switched straight from rubber or foam setups and most cars were very good right off the bat. A couple guys took them a couple heats but their cars are pretty good now too. Our track is slick to medium traction depending on the day.
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