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Old 11-17-2008, 08:41 PM   #3256
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I've been told not to even try mechanical timing with the motor. It will shorten the life of the rotor. They come off a lab dyno optimized.
"Set it and forget it"

John
Are you sure you arent thinking about brushed motors? This is very true for them.
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Old 11-17-2008, 08:49 PM   #3257
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Have you guys seen the thread about the SMC one cell lipo battery? They have been testing it for 12th scale. It puts out 3.7 volts so they have to use a receiver pack with it. There are other issues to work out but if you run it with a 13.5 it will perform about like a four cell and 17.5. So I guess that means you will still get waxed by the 21.5/lipo and four cell/27t-br.
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Old 11-17-2008, 09:16 PM   #3258
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Sorry reenmachine. Did not mean to rain on your parade. I was just asking what the class was about. I do want to race in a relaxed pace and have fun. After 20 yrs of seeking speed from my rc racing it's time to RELAX. Big Jim
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Old 11-17-2008, 09:27 PM   #3259
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Cheers, Jim. I apologize if I overreacted. I just wasn't expecting such controversy from what I thought was an innocuous question.
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Old 11-17-2008, 09:30 PM   #3260
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Maybe you guys are just looking for something to bitch about since Doug announced that there were no motor changes until at least next summer.
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When is the motor rule going to change in this class for 21.5?
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Scoob - if you read back a 1/2 dozen pages or so, Doug said no changes at this time UNLESS ROAR does something about approving 21.5 motors...

He said that there's talk about it, but nothing concrete - so the novak's are it...
k -- I think Scooby was just breaking the tension by goofing on the line from my post immediately before his...
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Old 11-18-2008, 05:41 AM   #3261
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Are you sure you arent thinking about brushed motors? This is very true for them.
No, I stumbled across it somewhere that Novak does dyno every single motor and they're supposed to be at their peak power, which isn't much, and messing with them will shorten the life. I'm too tired this morning to look it up though. So far I've found it easier (in the 2 times I've run it) to gear for the track. I've also found these motors can run hard at FDRs with taller gears well under the 4.2 limit. My previous comment about set it and forget it is just my opinion though. If there is a mechanical advantage to timing the motor and it doesn't shorted its life span, it should be covered somewhere. I would imagine that you can increase RPMs and decrease torque turning it one way and increase torque and decrease RPMs the other. Like I noted earlier, I've been able to get what I need from gearing alone so far. Now the driver just needs to remember to where his glasses to practice so he can see his little land rocket in the dimly lit back corners of the track.

John
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Old 11-18-2008, 05:42 AM   #3262
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I've been told not to even try mechanical timing with the motor. It will shorten the life of the rotor. They come off a lab dyno optimized.
The only way to shorten the life of a rotor in a 21.5 is to get it crazy hot, or take a dremel to it. A 21.5 can never reach sufficient RPM to break a rotor regardless of timing.

Optimized for what conditions? I don't believe there will be one timing setting that is optimal for every condition.
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Old 11-18-2008, 05:48 AM   #3263
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reenmachine,

I don't thin k you overreacted, isn't tuning our stuff to make it work better part of the fun? It is for me. As far as I'm concerned, the fun starts to get lost when you get into the buying the battery of the week, or the motor of the week, or cutting the com and replacing brushes every run, or one-run tires, etc.

But adjusting the timing? Please.
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Old 11-18-2008, 05:50 AM   #3264
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To any who have told me that the 21.5 LiPo combination will not improve my lap times and I need to work on my driving, you are right and wrong. My lap times with the 21.5 .vs the 17.5 along with my poor to average driving style have decreased my lap times by almost 2 seconds. What I've experience so far after the frustration of the 17.5 is that the continous "punch" of the LiPos makes my car that much more predictable lap after lap. I'm still working on the driving as I know I'm leaving at least a second out there on the track per lap, but I like the confidence this set up is giving me, its predictability and longer run times just to turn more laps. I'm hoping to get another 4 to 6 hours in before my next race. Wish me luck.

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Old 11-18-2008, 06:20 AM   #3265
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John,

That's encouraging to hear... I decided to go right to the 21.5/LiPO combo for this class. Good luck, you're treading on some dangerous ground here (even looking at your lap times might be construed as against the spirit of FUN by some) but if you're having fun, you're obviously on the right track...
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Old 11-18-2008, 06:28 AM   #3266
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The only way to shorten the life of a rotor in a 21.5 is to get it crazy hot, or take a dremel to it. A 21.5 can never reach sufficient RPM to break a rotor regardless of timing.

Optimized for what conditions? I don't believe there will be one timing setting that is optimal for every condition.
So, what are they then? List some preferences. I like to learn about these things. I run about 10 minutes, motor gets warm I park it till it cools, treat the tires and go back out. After 10 minutes my car is so full of fuzz it doesn't have traction anyway.

Optimized from an engineering standpoint I guess. Again, its from something Novak put out. Don't hang the messenger.
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Old 11-18-2008, 06:34 AM   #3267
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reenmachine,

I don't thin k you overreacted, isn't tuning our stuff to make it work better part of the fun? It is for me. As far as I'm concerned, the fun starts to get lost when you get into the buying the battery of the week, or the motor of the week, or cutting the com and replacing brushes every run, or one-run tires, etc.

But adjusting the timing? Please.
Hammer meet the nail. I have always had fun tinkering with my car and close racing. Those two thing make the fun part of RC racing for me.

What I hated was oh look new chassis , motor out etc. First person at track gets it, lap times drop without any other changes. So now you start wondering is my set up or will that item really make me faster? Only one way to find out. Spending money constantly is not fun.

USVTA has captured the close racing, the rules have eliminated the money pit.

Tinker away.
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Old 11-18-2008, 08:58 AM   #3268
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So, what are they then? List some preferences. I like to learn about these things. I run about 10 minutes, motor gets warm I park it till it cools, treat the tires and go back out. After 10 minutes my car is so full of fuzz it doesn't have traction anyway.

Optimized from an engineering standpoint I guess. Again, its from something Novak put out. Don't hang the messenger.
I'd tend to run more timing advance on a bigger or more open layout, and back off if there's much tight technical sections where torque off slow corners becomes a factor, then again I'd also look at lap times and go with whatever worked out best in that regard... All the while making sure the motor didn't get real hot by the end of a run.
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Old 11-18-2008, 11:00 AM   #3269
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USVTA is fun for me because I don't feel the need to spend a great deal of money "buying" speed. I'm running a TC3 with a Novak XBR/21.5 and a 1+ year old Orion 3600 battery. My car is as fast as any car on the track, I just need to drive it better.

As far as the actually racing on the track, VTA has taught me to be a better driver. Because I am racing against so many different racers with different skill levels I have to actually think about driving my car instead of slinging it around the track. I may not have the fastest car of the day, but there usually is someone that is similar in speed. Inevitably I will be trying to pass or defending my position against that person. How can you not have fun trying to find a way to pass an equal car on the track for multiple laps/turns? Or better yet, defending your line until the person behind you makes a mistake and you pull away.

Of course there are going to be faster/slower cars in this class. In the case where I'm working slower traffic, I've learned a lot of patience. Where is the fun in driving through someone and ruining their day? If I'm faster then I should be able to make a clean pass. If I'm being passed by a faster car, I try to let them pass fairly where it doesn't affect my race. Learning where to go wide without slowing down my lap is also rewarding.

In the end, we all race for different reasons. Some like to spend countless hours on setup and tuning. Some like to spend those hours chatting with their friends at the track. But the one thing in common that I've seen at all the tracks is that people are having fun in VTA. They are showing sportmanship on the track and coming off the stands with smiles. I think that says that there is plenty of room for all racers in this class, which is a good thing.
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Old 11-18-2008, 11:55 AM   #3270
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Indy,

I agree with you completely. Until my driving improves though, I doubt I'll start looking for a mechanical advantage. I'll tinker, but mostly with setup. I'll save timing for last.
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