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Old 11-11-2008, 09:06 PM   #3166
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Originally Posted by reenmachine View Post
I build custom vintage Mustangs for a living, and one of my buddies from that world is Miles Cook, who is the Tech Editor for Mustang Monthly magazine. He used to race RC a lot back in the 80s and I've been letting him race my Mustang in VTA and I've been running my Camaro.

He also writes on the Mustang Monthly blog and he just posted this:

Mustang Monthly USVTA Blog

It'll be interesting to see what kind of response it gets!
Reen,

I thought that it was too much a coincidence in the name. I followed your builds on the various mustang forums, and have a 69 mustang myself. Welcome to the R/C world .

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Old 11-11-2008, 09:18 PM   #3167
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Originally Posted by YmeBP View Post
As a racer and a dad of a current racer and 2 up and coming racers (lots and lots of rc stuff at my house) i'd like to ask, petition, beg that you don't make it 21.5 lipo only. Funny thing is i run 21.5 lipo .

1) My kid is 10, he's having a great time w/ the brushed, 4 cell. I can get both dirt cheap and other kids his skill level are running the same thing. Part of the reason he is racing vta is because the other classes are WAY too expensive, and fast. Hell even M18's have gotten crazy in the thirst for speed.

2) Cost, i'd like to keep racing. With all these blasted kids (yes i know we didn't have to have them all but we did and we like racing as a family) it's expensive to do lipo's. It is also expensive to go fast, the faster he (me too) goes the most stuff breaks.

3) Saftey, i'm not that worried about the lipo's blowing up when i use them, as lazy as i get sometimes i am careful w/ them. But ... he's 10, (my other new racer is almost 4) and i've yet to see him cause a meltdown w/ reversed polarity or shorted nickle's.

4) the whole idea of limited speed is what brought me to the class to begin with. I have to be honest i spent a good deal of money to be "competitive" in vta recently, now this whole thing w/ tire tread being a certain height is adding another expense. I started in vta w/ a used tc3 brushed and cells. After getting stomped by high dollar current tech touring cars and 21.5/lipo i upgraded/side graded my current touring car (a losi type-r) bougth a novak 21.5 and stuck a tekin rs in my vta, total bill 500$ total bill for a ready to run tc3 125$ with parts and batteries . You tell me ... which would you rather?

Keep the class slow, if people don't like it they can go back to touring or that new worl gt class that i see popping up. There are tons and tons of fast classes out there for people who want speed to choose from, keep vta close to it's roots.

Anyway just my 2 cents, really, cause that's all I have left after paying the cc bill from the start of the indoor season hahaha.
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Originally Posted by Kregger View Post
I have to agree with this. I thought the whole point of the class was to have fun.

Apex, I aplaud you on your efforts with VTA and I like the fact that there is no commitee to dilute the rules. I am starting to get concered though that the speeds are getting up there especially with the 21.5 options. Is this somthing you are taking into consideration?
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Originally Posted by f1larry View Post
I have to agree with YmeBP. I would hate to see the Brushed combo thrown out to soon. Being on a budget and having an 11 year old racing as well I am not able to convert everything at once. While I know Matthew and I will not be as competitive with our set ups as with the 21.5's we still are having fun.

I also think that having the brushed option will continue to draw in new people because they can continue to start racing at a low cost because they can buy equipment from people who have jumped to BL 21.5 lipo and a newer chasis. Once the Newbie gets hooked they will then upgrade as they will learn fast that BL 21.5/lipo is the cheapest/easiest combo in the long run and also will want a newer chasis now that they are hooked.
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Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
The move to ROAR 21.5 has me concerned because I'm in the same boat trying to do this with my son. While I knew there might such a move, I didn't think it meant replacing the NOVAK 21.5. If these ROAR 21.5 are going to be that much faster, I have to believe going to them will kill this class faster than most want to admit.

This class was about fun, cost and slower speeds. Novak has seen the demand and made ajustments, leave it the NOVAK motor. Look at all the
complaints currently saying that the other 2 motor options can't keep up.
If you move to faster 21.5s, you'll just lose a lot of the people your were originally trying to attract with the class.
Doug - I've agreed with you and talked to you about this offline, but look at where this is starting to go...I know you've busted your butt trying to do this and please everyone...but I CANNOT see going to 1 motor option being a good thing for this class - also, I cannot see how allowing other 21.5 (with the current mix) is going to help the class...

I've been racing/running classes for a while, and making a move to a "one motor/battery" option only does not help classes - it makes them those "novality" classes that every track has seen come and go, and this class has too much potiential to have it turn into a novality

Please please please please consider all the options before making a jump to this - something like that could very easily chase away all the guys that came back to racing and/or starting running this class because of the BENEFITS...

The two "major" UVSTA races lately have kinda make the class a "if you don't run the 21.5, you ain't going to be even"....Look at the "Gate" race - how many of the Top10 weren't 21.5/lipo?? and I know only 2 of the "dirty dozen" at the East Coast Shootout WEREN'T Lipo...

Honestly, I think its time to start putting some tighter restrictions on the class to pull everyone BACK together - but that's just my opinion
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Old 11-11-2008, 10:33 PM   #3168
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Reen,

I thought that it was too much a coincidence in the name. I followed your builds on the various mustang forums, and have a 69 mustang myself. Welcome to the R/C world .

Jimmy
Hi Jimmy -- yup, it's a small world. RC is what got me into tinkering with cars in the first place years before I got my driver's license and caught the Mustang bug. Now, 20+ years later, I'm back to RC to get some respite from the stress of it all!

Cheers,
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Old 11-11-2008, 11:34 PM   #3169
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...reading this thread, and stuff about the VTA I see a lot of the same issues and struggles I faced last year when working on similar stuff for classes to take our oval racing into the Brushless Lipo world.

I WANT GOOD RACING - QUALITY RACING - that is PRIORITY ONE!

This appears similar to Doug's ideas with the U.S. VTA

TONS of 'different' brands, products, etc do NOT make for better racing...and in many cases they HURT IT. (hmmm wonder WHY so many other classes fail and change..and drive people out)

Why is it we FIGHT for things we want - Get what we want..THEN KILL IT.

Guys with "BRAND LOYALTY" over the thought of GREAT RACING always come into something that starts out great...and PUSH to get thier products shoved in...then the classes get divided, products have no PARITY, and become quickly obsoleted by other companies who always strive to take over the market.

I really HOPE this doesn't happen to the VTA - as it is/has already started happening to the Brushless/LIPO oval racing...and it's not done crumbling yet! (Funny thing is - it's only beginning in many areas, and hasn't even started in others)

The VTA idea is catching on quickly in a lot of areas. Is it ALL by the USVTA rules? NO

But, that is ok...GET the guys INTO something close...then bend them toward the OFFICIAL Rules and Guidelines set forth. (GET THEM RACING FIRST)

I can't wait to watch a bunch of OVAL GUYS running thiers this weekend at our OVAL SERIES FINALE on the Carpet in LINDSAY CA. (We're doing a VINTAGE Exhibition...on the OVAL, and several of the guys are exciting to get their DECKED OUT VINTAGE Bodies on the track) HOPEFULLY, I'll get some pics. (I've requested that the guys run the STOCK/4 cell combo if possible) Which was popular, cause a lot of the OVAL GUYS have BRUSHED stuff just sitting since we switched to B/L and LIPO for all of our OVAL Classes.
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Old 11-12-2008, 04:37 AM   #3170
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Originally Posted by SWTour View Post
...reading this thread, and stuff about the VTA I see a lot of the same issues and struggles I faced last year when working on similar stuff for classes to take our oval racing into the Brushless Lipo world.

I WANT GOOD RACING - QUALITY RACING - that is PRIORITY ONE!

This appears similar to Doug's ideas with the U.S. VTA

TONS of 'different' brands, products, etc do NOT make for better racing...and in many cases they HURT IT. (hmmm wonder WHY so many other classes fail and change..and drive people out)

Why is it we FIGHT for things we want - Get what we want..THEN KILL IT.

Guys with "BRAND LOYALTY" over the thought of GREAT RACING always come into something that starts out great...and PUSH to get thier products shoved in...then the classes get divided, products have no PARITY, and become quickly obsoleted by other companies who always strive to take over the market.

I really HOPE this doesn't happen to the VTA - as it is/has already started happening to the Brushless/LIPO oval racing...and it's not done crumbling yet! (Funny thing is - it's only beginning in many areas, and hasn't even started in others)

The VTA idea is catching on quickly in a lot of areas. Is it ALL by the USVTA rules? NO

But, that is ok...GET the guys INTO something close...then bend them toward the OFFICIAL Rules and Guidelines set forth. (GET THEM RACING FIRST)

I can't wait to watch a bunch of OVAL GUYS running thiers this weekend at our OVAL SERIES FINALE on the Carpet in LINDSAY CA. (We're doing a VINTAGE Exhibition...on the OVAL, and several of the guys are exciting to get their DECKED OUT VINTAGE Bodies on the track) HOPEFULLY, I'll get some pics. (I've requested that the guys run the STOCK/4 cell combo if possible) Which was popular, cause a lot of the OVAL GUYS have BRUSHED stuff just sitting since we switched to B/L and LIPO for all of our OVAL Classes.

Well said, lets STOP trying to KILL RC !
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Old 11-12-2008, 06:20 AM   #3171
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Reen I have a couple of questions for you.

The first question is does your real Mustang look like your VTA car?
The second is, Do you race it like that? The reason I ask is because its still shiny. Maybe you just got a lot of pictures of it before you raced and thats what Im seeing. I just cant keep my car looking that good after three or four races, I usually have a big dent or gash some where.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1fastdude View Post
Well said, lets STOP trying to KILL RC !
I dont think anyone is trying to kill RC. I just think that there are a lot of people that havent been around it that long and they dont see why certain changes cant be made. So they ask, and they ask something else and they argue why. Then somebody new comes in and they ask the same question, only this time every body in the forum is sick of talking about it so they flame the new guy who thought he was just asking a simple question. Its nobodys fault just the nature of forums.

Those of us that have been in the hobby for twenty plus years have seen this all before. We are already settled in to this and our habits match our racing style. Thats why we grow intolerant of some of these questions.
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Old 11-12-2008, 06:42 AM   #3172
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This is a race, and it doesn't matter how much fun everyone is having it is still racing. There are some things that are the nature of the beast. There will be people who have to win to have fun and will push for every competitive advantage. It happens in mini cooper, micro's and any other class that was started by a few guys having fun. So you put these rules in place and that is all you can do.

Don't complain, if low budget racing is what you want get some 4 cell brushed stuff. But if you aren't a good motor builder and have older packs, don't complain when someone with new equipment passes you.

I am a firm believer that a new stick of 4 cells and a hot 27 turn brushed motor is going to be just as fast as the 21.5 lipo.

Also car setup is huge, there is a guy at my local track running 17.5 foam and he feels that guys blowed by him on the straight, and they are running the same power plant. It isn't anything more than setup and the line that they run.

So run, have fun and win your own battles, if you and 4 other guys are running comparable lap times, fight between the 3 or 4 of you to see who is the fastest each week.

There are some people in this hobby who are naturally faster than most, and if you walk in with your car and expect to out run someone with 20 years of racing and get upset when you don't you need to realize that speed doesn't happen over night.

enjoy the class, race to win your own battles. And put in the testing time to get your car right. The 21.5 lipo discussion needs to end, it is the natural progression of the class. And if Apex has read this far down, please think about making the novak 21.5 the spec motor, all of the guys who run this year and bought $90 motors could get many years out of them, but if you add motors next year that blow them away we have a lot of expensive paper weights.

Look at the BRL series, they have spec'd motors and power and are the biggest class of oval racers in the us right now.....

Bigemike, out
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Old 11-12-2008, 07:03 AM   #3173
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One last comment about the possiblity of these faster motors.

As the speeds increase, the handling differences between the lower end chassis and the higher end ones gets wider.

Now I admit that I'm new to the brushless, so I don't know if this will be the case going from a Novak 21.5ss to any of the new ones, but just something to consider.
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Old 11-12-2008, 07:09 AM   #3174
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Originally Posted by ApexSpeed View Post
And for the record, about 60 seconds on Google last week in the middle of the "Great Novak Drought" found me 4 different places that had Novak 21.5s in stock. If you can't find a motor, it's an issue. If you can't find a deal, it's most definitely not something that we're going to change the rules for.
Best statement so far Doug. I too (like Doug) looked a little deeper to find 10 places in the last three weeks that guaranteed three day shipping on 21.5 Novak motors. They are out there !!!!

Sure would be a shame to have Novak work so hard to push these motors out for all of us, just to say "Hey thanks, but we're gonna open it up to all 21.5 motors" then with all the down talking about Novak motors being "slower" (I disagree of course) nobody buys them and they sit on massive stock of 21.5s. GREAT KICK IN THE @%$
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Old 11-12-2008, 07:35 AM   #3175
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I am actually trying a tc4 rather than my tc5. The older shaft cars seem to be as fast or faster than the newest and latest.

For all of you guys that think the new motors are faster than what you did have, that just shows you how far off your motor program was.

Ok, back to work I have to get out of here to go race USVTA tonight.
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Old 11-12-2008, 09:16 AM   #3176
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Originally Posted by bigemike View Post
I am actually trying a tc4 rather than my tc5. The older shaft cars seem to be as fast or faster than the newest and latest.

For all of you guys that think the new motors are faster than what you did have, that just shows you how far off your motor program was.

Ok, back to work I have to get out of here to go race USVTA tonight.
I just finished my TC3 (shaft car) which still has a nice 27T in it, an old Paradox. I'm not going to do too much as the 21.5 is on the way as far as tuning the motor. I'll do some comparison runs against mine or my son's e4js (belt car) which has a 17.5 BL geared respectably at a 3.48 FDR for giggles. What I really should do is put all 3 setups currently allowed into both cars and record some laps and compare apples to apples as my own sanity check. I'm not too worried about winning, but staying with the pack is definitely more fun!
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Old 11-12-2008, 09:38 AM   #3177
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Well, I'm actually surprised and excited that the response both here, PM and through e-mail has been wholly in favor of S L O W E R race cars. It seems as though somehow the main thrust of this class has really sunk in, and people now GET IT! I'm thrilled.


Ok, so let's agree that nothing changes in the rules for this season.

The FDR stays as a flexible target for each track that uses the USVTA rules, with the 4.2 number as a starting point. Motors don't change at all, and next spring we'll ask any motor manufacturer to submit their ROAR approved 21.5 to the USVTA to test to make sure that they do not perform in excess of the existing motor formulas. Any motor found to perform superior to the standard-bearing Novak 21.5ss will not be approved for USVTA racing. We will solicit multiple racers from multiple tracks around the country to test all of these submitted motors under different conditions to acquire the data needed to approve them for USVTA racing.

I completely agree, nothing faster than what we are currently running should ever be legal.


We'll deal with other issues with the class growth as they develop.
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Old 11-12-2008, 09:41 AM   #3178
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I just wish the FDR limit would have been lower so that I could keep running my old Yokomo with 21.5 LiPo -- I can only fit gears in it to get to a 5.40 FDR -- no way I could get to a 4.2 with it.

Oh well... I have a new TA05 on the way for VTA :-)
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Old 11-12-2008, 10:03 AM   #3179
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Well, I'm actually surprised and excited that the response both here, PM and through e-mail has been wholly in favor of S L O W E R race cars. It seems as though somehow the main thrust of this class has really sunk in, and people now GET IT! I'm thrilled.
Amen!
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Old 11-12-2008, 11:18 AM   #3180
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Originally Posted by ApexSpeed View Post
Ok, so let's agree that nothing changes in the rules for this season.
Im all in.

Team Goodwrench. I had the same thing happen to me when I tried to put a 12scale spur on a serpent. I cant get the motor close enough, and I cant find a pinion big enough to let me use a bigger spur and have the gear I want.
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