ROAR B/L motor Rules debate thread
01-05-2008, 06:29 AM
#391
Just a quick note on Lipo for 1/12th (sorry if I missed this being mentioned in the thread earlier). The cell technologies are changing at a fairly rapid pace as well, and Altairnano has a cell putting out 2.3V which in a 2S configuration would be close for 1/12th. I'm not sure if they make an RC sized cell as I deal w\ HEV applications (kinda odd to ask if the make RC stuff in meetings 
).
So the future may allow for 1/12th lipo power.
Jimmy
). So the future may allow for 1/12th lipo power.
Jimmy
01-05-2008, 07:00 AM
#392
Tech Master
iTrader: (16)
The NOVAK Race Results so far are proving that BRUSHLESS Power is just amazing.
So far this speed differences between 13.5, 10.5, and Mod are REDICUOUSLY close.
Mod top TQ = 5.00 (30-laps)
10.5 top TQ = 5.08 (30-laps) - less than .002 of a lap difference to modified
13.5 top TQ = 5.04 (29-laps)
A couple of the Top TQ drivers in 10.5 could take the bottom 2-3 spots in modified as it stands now, and the same goes for 13.5.
I think it is pretty clear we have a problem here. If these results stay this close through to the mains, I think the 13.5 should become the new 19T, not a 10.5. As for 27T, unfortunately it looks like they did not have enough to run a 17.5 class so we could see how much slower it is. I really would have liked to see the differences at a big race between a 17.5, 13.5, and 10.5.
Anyone have any laptime data from a 17.5 and 13.5 race?
Also, if anyone questions why XRAY brings out a new car every year or so, this should answer it. We have reached the limit of these cars ability to take any more power. We have to slow the cars down to make this more enjoyable again, and probably also switch to Rubber Tire Racing as they have in other countries.
You can only go so fast on a small track with 6-cell modified foam. Time for a change? Maybe Modified should be 5-cell Foam only, and all other classes 6-cell Rubber.
So far this speed differences between 13.5, 10.5, and Mod are REDICUOUSLY close.
Mod top TQ = 5.00 (30-laps)
10.5 top TQ = 5.08 (30-laps) - less than .002 of a lap difference to modified
13.5 top TQ = 5.04 (29-laps)
A couple of the Top TQ drivers in 10.5 could take the bottom 2-3 spots in modified as it stands now, and the same goes for 13.5.
I think it is pretty clear we have a problem here. If these results stay this close through to the mains, I think the 13.5 should become the new 19T, not a 10.5. As for 27T, unfortunately it looks like they did not have enough to run a 17.5 class so we could see how much slower it is. I really would have liked to see the differences at a big race between a 17.5, 13.5, and 10.5.
Anyone have any laptime data from a 17.5 and 13.5 race?
Also, if anyone questions why XRAY brings out a new car every year or so, this should answer it. We have reached the limit of these cars ability to take any more power. We have to slow the cars down to make this more enjoyable again, and probably also switch to Rubber Tire Racing as they have in other countries.
You can only go so fast on a small track with 6-cell modified foam. Time for a change? Maybe Modified should be 5-cell Foam only, and all other classes 6-cell Rubber.
01-05-2008, 08:09 AM
#395
This is a bit off topic but its kind of funny how most on this forum think that some form of NiMh is going to disappear and all that will be left is some form of LiXX for power. I recently read a article about power sources being produced via the venom produced from a bee sting and as small as a fingernail to boot. This sorce was being used to recharge cell phone batteries. In any matter NiMh isn't going to disappear any sooner than your typical over the counter carbon cell will, it might not be the same one as last year, but it will still be there.
Now to get ROAR to make rulings on something that will definately effect all sources of chassis maunfacturing, this will be a very difficult decision.
Now to get ROAR to make rulings on something that will definately effect all sources of chassis maunfacturing, this will be a very difficult decision.
01-05-2008, 08:35 AM
#396
Stop talking about 10.5/19T Lap times. Start talking about FEEL. 13.5 Feels SLOW. 10.5 feels fast and fun. I don't run stock because its slow and boring to me. I have tried 13.5 and its a little faster then stock but its still slow to me.
I could care less about how evenly spaced lap times are between classes. We race cars not statistical analyasis programs.
I could care less about how evenly spaced lap times are between classes. We race cars not statistical analyasis programs.
01-05-2008, 08:37 AM
#397
I'm beginning to notice something interesting.
It seems everyone had different observations for different applications. We are seeing different results in on road, off road, and oval. Even in carpet on road, the same BL motor reacts different in a touring car and a 1/12 scale. With that it's going to be impossible to say that a x.5 brushless motor is the equivalent of a y-turn brushed motor. So with that I make the following suggestion:
First, eliminate the word "stock" from the rule book. There's nothing stock about a stock motor. The word stock comes from full scale cars, and it means as it came from the factory. In RC it originally referred to the mabuchi silver can motors that came in the Japanese kits. Later we added specs like 27 turns of 24 gage wire, and 24 degrees locked timing. Today these motors are tuned much faster than anyone ever anticipated, to the point where a 27 turn motor from today is faster than a mod motor from 10 years ago. And that's why no one runs mod on road any more.
Second, introduce a new entry level class, where the spec motor is a brushless motor. I like the idea of 17.5. This also gives car makers an RTR option, where they can include a brushless motor package with either a ROAR race spec motor, and/or a faster street bashing motor.
Third, leave 27 turn brushed alone, just don't call it stock any more. Make it any 27 turn motor you want within the current rules, with no brushless allowed.
Finally, spec modified, where 19 turn brushed and 10.5 brushless run together. You may have to change the oval (and potentially 1/12 scale) rules to 13.5, but that would be up to the racers.
Of course open mod remains open mod, but like I said in on road no one races mod at the local level. I couldn't tell you the last time we had a mod class at a Region 1 race.
With things set up like this the racers can make their own choice, and they will tell us which class is better. Each class and type of motor will have to stand on it's own, and the racers will vote with their wallets which will stay and which will go.
It seems everyone had different observations for different applications. We are seeing different results in on road, off road, and oval. Even in carpet on road, the same BL motor reacts different in a touring car and a 1/12 scale. With that it's going to be impossible to say that a x.5 brushless motor is the equivalent of a y-turn brushed motor. So with that I make the following suggestion:
First, eliminate the word "stock" from the rule book. There's nothing stock about a stock motor. The word stock comes from full scale cars, and it means as it came from the factory. In RC it originally referred to the mabuchi silver can motors that came in the Japanese kits. Later we added specs like 27 turns of 24 gage wire, and 24 degrees locked timing. Today these motors are tuned much faster than anyone ever anticipated, to the point where a 27 turn motor from today is faster than a mod motor from 10 years ago. And that's why no one runs mod on road any more.
Second, introduce a new entry level class, where the spec motor is a brushless motor. I like the idea of 17.5. This also gives car makers an RTR option, where they can include a brushless motor package with either a ROAR race spec motor, and/or a faster street bashing motor.
Third, leave 27 turn brushed alone, just don't call it stock any more. Make it any 27 turn motor you want within the current rules, with no brushless allowed.
Finally, spec modified, where 19 turn brushed and 10.5 brushless run together. You may have to change the oval (and potentially 1/12 scale) rules to 13.5, but that would be up to the racers.
Of course open mod remains open mod, but like I said in on road no one races mod at the local level. I couldn't tell you the last time we had a mod class at a Region 1 race.
With things set up like this the racers can make their own choice, and they will tell us which class is better. Each class and type of motor will have to stand on it's own, and the racers will vote with their wallets which will stay and which will go.
01-05-2008, 09:15 AM
#398
You on-roader`s !!!
Two stock class`s and discussion for another stock class ?
You guys will do anything to avoid moving up and start racing Mod ....
Two stock class`s and discussion for another stock class ?
You guys will do anything to avoid moving up and start racing Mod ....
01-05-2008, 09:25 AM
#399
Yep, mod is all but dead in this area as well, rapidly replaced by 19t. I think you are correct, whatever starter class, if it is introduced, should be a brushless. My reasoning behind this is simply because the support equipment, ie speed control, can support both types of motors, and this will help eliviate the entry level costs as well as the tuning frustrations.
Last edited by Johnny Wishbone; 01-05-2008 at 09:35 AM.
01-05-2008, 09:53 AM
#400
Tech Initiate
Mod top TQ = 5.00 (30-laps)
10.5 top TQ = 5.08 (30-laps) - less than .002 of a lap difference to modified
10.5 top TQ = 5.08 (30-laps) - less than .002 of a lap difference to modified
01-05-2008, 10:23 AM
#401
But I must admit we on roaders are very often our own worst eneminies.
There is no such thing as stock. Stock is a word.
Have you ever seen a mod TC race on carpet? For racers who can do it well, these cars are absolutely ballistic. It's amazing how fast they are, not just in a straight line, but corner speed as well.
The problem with mod is when you crash, you crash BIG!!! I've seen people wipe out entire cars just tapping a board. Even for the best drivers there's no fun in spending all day fixing your car. Everyone runs 27 turn because it's much easier on equipment, and therefore cheaper.
01-05-2008, 10:36 AM
#404
