ROAR B/L motor Rules debate thread
01-02-2008, 06:36 PM
#31
yea, and ROAR should look to the 'Birds for guidelines....
ok.
Sorry, I couldn't live with that much longer....
(sorry Mike, you know I love ya!)
01-02-2008, 06:50 PM
#32
Me three...
So what if 13.5 disappears. There needs to be distinct speed/laptime differences between all the classes. Having the three that Adrian outlined is perfect IMO.
Then the way I see it...
No self respecting sponsored driver who has paid travel, 50%, or whatever would let themselves race something as slow as 17.5s.
This will let new fresh faces into the 'stock' class with the 10.5 and Open Classes fill up with the top Factory Team and sponsored drivers.
So what if 13.5 disappears. There needs to be distinct speed/laptime differences between all the classes. Having the three that Adrian outlined is perfect IMO.
Then the way I see it...
No self respecting sponsored driver who has paid travel, 50%, or whatever would let themselves race something as slow as 17.5s.
This will let new fresh faces into the 'stock' class with the 10.5 and Open Classes fill up with the top Factory Team and sponsored drivers.
I agree with Adrian.
"17.5T/27T Stock/Spec BL
10.5T/19T Spec Mod/Spec Mod BL
BL/BR Open Modified
Those racers with 13.5T motors can continue to race them happily at the club level for as long as there is interest in continuing to run them. The rules for 13.5 will not be written but will be controlled by local race directors with guidance based on the ROAR rules just like everyone is doing right now.?
"17.5T/27T Stock/Spec BL
10.5T/19T Spec Mod/Spec Mod BL
BL/BR Open Modified
Those racers with 13.5T motors can continue to race them happily at the club level for as long as there is interest in continuing to run them. The rules for 13.5 will not be written but will be controlled by local race directors with guidance based on the ROAR rules just like everyone is doing right now.?
01-02-2008, 06:56 PM
#33
The bigger picture.
I just don't think its going to be that easy for ROAR to come up with any cross over class. Much like each person is inputting what they want to see legalized, the problem lies in the fact that maybe your class structure works for oval and something else is working for TC and then there still is the offroad racers that want something else again, and what about the 1/12th guys. ROAR has to approach this by looking at all the scales and not just one, and then come up with something thats going to work, but still not obsolete what many have already purchased and are running, and then the racer that wants to be able to run in different classess but feels neglected or abused because ROAR couldn't make what racer x has for equipment work in a catch all category.
I'm pretty sure no matter what they chose(ROAR), some of us are going to have to change some equipment, and maybe all of us will, its just part of the process in getting the whole thing going. Just don't blame ROAR if thats what happens.
I'm pretty sure no matter what they chose(ROAR), some of us are going to have to change some equipment, and maybe all of us will, its just part of the process in getting the whole thing going. Just don't blame ROAR if thats what happens.
01-02-2008, 06:56 PM
#34
So who makes 17.5 BL's? I will get one for fairness sake.
01-02-2008, 06:57 PM
#35
I see everybody posting this brushed vs brushless thing... Nobody has really asked how much longer are Brushed motors going to be around? Look at the current Modified class, a vast majority of drivers have switched to brushless and they still have the option to run brushed. Give it a little more time and everybody will be running brushless in Modified. Brushed motors are slowing being phased out. I think the same sort of thing will need to happen in Stock and 19T as I believe within 3-4 years it will be brushless everywhere. I don't envy the position Dawn is in, in making such an important decision but I love the fact she is open to almost anything and is taking the input from average racers... I'm really open to trying anything so I'm exited in what the future holds! 
01-02-2008, 07:02 PM
#36
And all this so they can run together?? What about race times...you gunna run 5-6 mins. to ruin the 4200mah and above technology to brushed guys that have trouble at race end on longer runs?? There still is silvercan for entry level drivers, so that no class for newbies is a crock also.We dont even have 27T races anymore, they all went 13.5 or 10.5.
Maybe we can have a hillbilly class that has 27T motors and wood tires.
01-02-2008, 07:05 PM
#37
Here the deal....
Racers bought into BL because it was new, cool and made racing more fun. Rules were not in place to govern these motor because no one...not even the manufacturers of these motors knew what would end up being equivalent to existing brushed motors.
If you recall 2 years ago the Novak 4300(10.5) was supposed to be a stock motor and the 5800 (8.5 was supposed to be a 19T. Both were too fast.
Then it was 13.5 and 10.5 with bonded rotor but the rotors were a problem and they went to sintered rotors. The 13.5 became faster then stock but the 10.5 was right at 19T level.
Now finally it seems 17.5 is the right equivalent to a 27T stock motor.
The racers that bought BL motor were on the bleeding edge of motor development. I know I was aware that the BL motors I was buying my not be legal in the future and would need to be replaced at some time. I have mentioned this time and again over the last two years. Well...experiment time is over. Its time to write the best rules we can even if it is inconvienent.
ROAR has 2 responsibilities.
1. Look out for the racers interests
2. Look out for the health of our hobby
Sometimes these two goals are at odds with each other.
In this case racers have bought motors that may not be in the best interests of the hobby. Its pretty clear that 13.5 is too fast for stock class racing and for novices getting into the hobby. 17.5 are much better.
Here is my suggestion:
I believe that ROAR should make rules for to govern BL racing that are ideal for Regional and National level racing. This means BL motors that are equivalent in speed and power to the existing core National level classes. This keep things similar to what we are running now and doe not add new unnecessary classes.
17.5T/27T Stock/Spec BL
10.5T/19T Spec Mod/Spec Mod BL
BL/BR Open Modified
Those racers with 13.5T motors can continue to race them happily at the club level for as long as there is interest in continuing to run them. The rules for 13.5 will not be written but will be controlled by local race directors with guidance based on the ROAR rules just like everyone is doing right now.
We really don't need more classes.
Racers bought into BL because it was new, cool and made racing more fun. Rules were not in place to govern these motor because no one...not even the manufacturers of these motors knew what would end up being equivalent to existing brushed motors.
If you recall 2 years ago the Novak 4300(10.5) was supposed to be a stock motor and the 5800 (8.5 was supposed to be a 19T. Both were too fast.
Then it was 13.5 and 10.5 with bonded rotor but the rotors were a problem and they went to sintered rotors. The 13.5 became faster then stock but the 10.5 was right at 19T level.
Now finally it seems 17.5 is the right equivalent to a 27T stock motor.
The racers that bought BL motor were on the bleeding edge of motor development. I know I was aware that the BL motors I was buying my not be legal in the future and would need to be replaced at some time. I have mentioned this time and again over the last two years. Well...experiment time is over. Its time to write the best rules we can even if it is inconvienent.
ROAR has 2 responsibilities.
1. Look out for the racers interests
2. Look out for the health of our hobby
Sometimes these two goals are at odds with each other.
In this case racers have bought motors that may not be in the best interests of the hobby. Its pretty clear that 13.5 is too fast for stock class racing and for novices getting into the hobby. 17.5 are much better.
Here is my suggestion:
I believe that ROAR should make rules for to govern BL racing that are ideal for Regional and National level racing. This means BL motors that are equivalent in speed and power to the existing core National level classes. This keep things similar to what we are running now and doe not add new unnecessary classes.
17.5T/27T Stock/Spec BL
10.5T/19T Spec Mod/Spec Mod BL
BL/BR Open Modified
Those racers with 13.5T motors can continue to race them happily at the club level for as long as there is interest in continuing to run them. The rules for 13.5 will not be written but will be controlled by local race directors with guidance based on the ROAR rules just like everyone is doing right now.
We really don't need more classes.
I really agree with Adrian on this. In years past, when it was only BR technology, when Epic or Top or Yokomo produced a new motor and it was produced and ready for sale in most cases the older style motors that they replaced immediately became obsolete overnight. The racers did what they had to do to stay competitive and they bought new motors. It was ok to do this because "racers" understood that these motors would not last forever anyways and in most cases these motors created a new "buzz" to get excited about. If you were really smart you sold your older motors after rebuiling them to a new/young racer and recouped a few bucks in the process.
The first generation BL crowd started 10,000 threads here on RCTECH crowing to everyone that these motors are taking over and that they should immediately be legal and in some cases (Wild Cherry) even stated he would stop racing at tracks that did not legalize them. Now we are ready for full legalization of BL motors and LIPOS as well. You guys are on the verge of getting what you wanted for 2.5 years and now the ironic thing if you read the threads carefully, some of these people are upset that some equipment that they bought may not be legal. To which I say...TOO BAD. Do what the racers of years past, sell some of this equipment to young/new racers or bashers for them to play with. Buy the legal stuff, be happy and go racing.
The only thing I would like to change on Adrian post is that we really really really don't need any more classes. His class structure seems to meet most of the goals that are needed. 13.5 BL can still get 50.00 on ebay or even on here which means that it only takes 30.00 more bucks to get the 17.5 that they would need.
Steve
01-02-2008, 07:05 PM
#38
01-02-2008, 07:07 PM
#39
Ya..unless they do away with the class, then you have a useless BL motor on your hands with min. 50% less value. Many of us have 2 motors and spare parts. BS to the 17.5, what a useless slow motor just to save a few 27T whiners from saying 13.5 is too fast. And all this so they can run together?? What about race times...you gunna run 5-6 mins. to ruin the 4200mah and above technology to brushed guys that have trouble at race end on longer runs?? There still is silvercan for entry level drivers, so that no class for newbies is a crock also.
We dont even have 27T races anymore, they all went 13.5 or 10.5.
Maybe we can have a hillbilly class that has 27T motors and wood tires.
And all this so they can run together?? What about race times...you gunna run 5-6 mins. to ruin the 4200mah and above technology to brushed guys that have trouble at race end on longer runs?? There still is silvercan for entry level drivers, so that no class for newbies is a crock also.We dont even have 27T races anymore, they all went 13.5 or 10.5.
Maybe we can have a hillbilly class that has 27T motors and wood tires.
We need to make stock a touch slower and leave spec mod and Open mod the same speed.
17.5, 10.5 abd open mod will do that.
01-02-2008, 07:10 PM
#40
Special note:
No one has focused on the fact that BL motors react differently in different cars.
A 17.5 in a sedan is the same speed or slower than a 27T.
A 17.5 in a 1/12th is certainly faster then a 27T.
A 17.5 in a 1/10 buggy is WAAAAYYYY faster than a 27T.
We cant have special motors for every class. All we can do is aim for the middle. 17.5 and 10.5 is the middle.
No one has focused on the fact that BL motors react differently in different cars.
A 17.5 in a sedan is the same speed or slower than a 27T.
A 17.5 in a 1/12th is certainly faster then a 27T.
A 17.5 in a 1/10 buggy is WAAAAYYYY faster than a 27T.
We cant have special motors for every class. All we can do is aim for the middle. 17.5 and 10.5 is the middle.
01-02-2008, 07:13 PM
#41
I'm a 1/12 scale newbie I have been raciing all year with 27 t brushed to get ready for the indoor nationals if I decided to run two classes my next choice would be 19t from my limited experience I know the jump from 27 to 19 is huge in 1/12 and it's that reason that I think 17.5 stock 13.5 19t and open motors for modified would make the climb from novice to expert more bearable.
Let's be honest what ever choice that is made racer's will be set up with the newest and the best if one motor is phased out so be it there are hobby people thrashing around in their front yards that would buy up those motors.
Let's be honest what ever choice that is made racer's will be set up with the newest and the best if one motor is phased out so be it there are hobby people thrashing around in their front yards that would buy up those motors.
01-02-2008, 07:17 PM
#42
also, in all fairness
You can NOT compare the SNOWBIRDS or the IIC or CLEVELAND or ANY single event to ROAR and/or to what ROAR should/shouldn't do.
ROAR is a rules making ORGANIZATION that has the task of trying to bring together
On-Road
Off-Road
Oval
and several other scales of racing...
You can not imagine that task if you've never been involved in being behind the scenes of an organization.
Racers in general are only concerned about the type of racing THEY do, and could care less about what everyone else wants.
MFG's care about selling products and want rules to be created to help them as much as possible...and will let them go before the "PURITY" of the racing.
(Bottom line is - the need to make $$$ or they will be gone)
Racers also get mad if they THINK an Organization is making money...(NEVER understood that either...)
It's also funny how guys who CAN DRIVE - feel EVERYONE should be able to just STEP UP and TRY HARDER - vs. having a class They are comfortable with...
R/C Racing needs to be more 'Inclusive' and less 'Exclusive' THEN...maybe IT will begin to GROW again!
You can NOT compare the SNOWBIRDS or the IIC or CLEVELAND or ANY single event to ROAR and/or to what ROAR should/shouldn't do.
ROAR is a rules making ORGANIZATION that has the task of trying to bring together
On-Road
Off-Road
Oval
and several other scales of racing...
You can not imagine that task if you've never been involved in being behind the scenes of an organization.
Racers in general are only concerned about the type of racing THEY do, and could care less about what everyone else wants.
MFG's care about selling products and want rules to be created to help them as much as possible...and will let them go before the "PURITY" of the racing.
(Bottom line is - the need to make $$$ or they will be gone)
Racers also get mad if they THINK an Organization is making money...(NEVER understood that either...)
It's also funny how guys who CAN DRIVE - feel EVERYONE should be able to just STEP UP and TRY HARDER - vs. having a class They are comfortable with...
R/C Racing needs to be more 'Inclusive' and less 'Exclusive' THEN...maybe IT will begin to GROW again!
01-02-2008, 07:18 PM
#43
We run this combo together every weekend and they are very close. The BL is more efficient so it ends up being a touch faster toward the end of a race. BL is just easy horsepower. You do not have to run the best motor and battery in the building to be in the hunt.
Speaking in terms of road course racing. Oval is completely different.
A 15.5 would have been a great motor for the stock equivalent. 17.5 is a touch slower and 13.5 is faster.
19t and 10.5 are as close as it gets.
Speaking in terms of road course racing. Oval is completely different.
A 15.5 would have been a great motor for the stock equivalent. 17.5 is a touch slower and 13.5 is faster.
19t and 10.5 are as close as it gets.
01-02-2008, 07:19 PM
#44
Tech Apprentice
Weight breaks/penalties aren't the answer either as there is a BIG difference in the effect if you're talking about a tighter, more technical track or an open sweeping track. The effect of weight is amplified in the former and minimized in the latter.
The whole concept/attempt at "equivalency" formulae is what is slowing the whole process down. When brushless are accepted it will need to be in it's own class (other than Mod) and the "similar" brushed classes will either live or die.
I, personally, hate to see them go. I'm worth doodly as a motor "tuner" but I can 100% appreciate that the ability to do so is still a BIG part of the hobby to a lot of folks.
The whole concept/attempt at "equivalency" formulae is what is slowing the whole process down. When brushless are accepted it will need to be in it's own class (other than Mod) and the "similar" brushed classes will either live or die.
I, personally, hate to see them go. I'm worth doodly as a motor "tuner" but I can 100% appreciate that the ability to do so is still a BIG part of the hobby to a lot of folks.
in another words,
brushed and brushless should run in seperate classes,save the effort of trying to come with equivalents,to allow them to run together,its difficuilt.and if u did,u are killing the brushed class quickley.so i would say:
**brushed class
stock class
19 turn class
modified(brushed or brushless)
**brushless class
17.5 class
13.5 class(or 10.5)
modified class(brushed or brushless)
evrey one will switch to brushless i know but it will take its time.
01-02-2008, 07:21 PM
#45
The problem is that 13.5 really is too damn fast for guys starting out and it will be the entry level class. Some guys are saying 27T foam sedan is too fast.
We need to make stock a touch slower and leave spec mod and Open mod the same speed.
17.5, 10.5 abd open mod will do that.
We need to make stock a touch slower and leave spec mod and Open mod the same speed.
17.5, 10.5 abd open mod will do that.