ROAR B/L motor Rules debate thread
01-02-2008, 06:08 PM
#16
Take a good look at the Snowbird race that draws racers from around the world every year.
Its the biggest and most popular race of the year.
What classes and rules do they use?
ROAR should look at the Snowbirds rules and consider them for guidelines.
Its my favorite race of the year!!
Its the biggest and most popular race of the year.
What classes and rules do they use?
ROAR should look at the Snowbirds rules and consider them for guidelines.
Its my favorite race of the year!!
01-02-2008, 06:10 PM
#17
IMO...Keep it simple with only two brushed\brushless motor classes...We all know brushless will prevail in the end so might as well gear the classes towards brushless now.
Stock - 13.5 or higher and 27T
-Going any higher and experienced racers will get bored with Stock
-Run Brushed 27T in the same class.
Mod -13.5 or lower (for TC - go to 5 cells)
-Run 5 cells in Mod TC like the rest of the world and slow the Mod cars down
-Run whatever Brushed motor you want.
Also, make TC's run only rubber tires on all surfaces. Leave foam racing for 1:12 and GP cars.
Stock - 13.5 or higher and 27T
-Going any higher and experienced racers will get bored with Stock
-Run Brushed 27T in the same class.
Mod -13.5 or lower (for TC - go to 5 cells)
-Run 5 cells in Mod TC like the rest of the world and slow the Mod cars down
-Run whatever Brushed motor you want.
Also, make TC's run only rubber tires on all surfaces. Leave foam racing for 1:12 and GP cars.
01-02-2008, 06:11 PM
#18
And MANY of them have found the 13.5s are quite abit faster than STOCK was, and they are having a hard time with NEWBIES getting their cars under control.
Don't GET RID of 13.5, but add 17.5 as an option for a more 'entry' level class.
MOST people don't currently run MOD - which I feel is one of the reasons many were pushing for 4 cell and 5 cell - to give MORE control to OPEN mod motors (instead of restricting the motors in the first place)
With 4 options
17.5
13.5
10.5
OPEN MOD
you have 4 choices that will cater to virtually any speed range needed.
Oh and if you want a REALLY SLOW NOVICE bound motor - try the 21.5 we're using on the Ovals as OUR Stock Replacement for '08 (EVEN THAT MOTOR is faster than what STOCK was)
Don't GET RID of 13.5, but add 17.5 as an option for a more 'entry' level class.
MOST people don't currently run MOD - which I feel is one of the reasons many were pushing for 4 cell and 5 cell - to give MORE control to OPEN mod motors (instead of restricting the motors in the first place)
With 4 options
17.5
13.5
10.5
OPEN MOD
you have 4 choices that will cater to virtually any speed range needed.
Oh and if you want a REALLY SLOW NOVICE bound motor - try the 21.5 we're using on the Ovals as OUR Stock Replacement for '08 (EVEN THAT MOTOR is faster than what STOCK was)
17.5--let's at least TRY to get back to a power level beginners can handle (heck, I wouldn't be opposed to 21.5 since I've seen for YEARS that less power = closer racing)
10.5
Open/Mod
And do away with the 13.5 level. OR create an 11.5 or 12.5 that creates more gap between that class and Open/Mod and maintains a reasonable performance step up from the "entry" class.
01-02-2008, 06:11 PM
#19
Tech Master
iTrader: (16)
Because of the gearing issue. The 17.5 motors only turn about 2,200 rpm's per volt, or about 16,000rpm's. A 13.5 motor turn about 3,300 rpm's per volt, which can reach 25,000 rpms on average. This would mean running pinions in the 50+ tooth range for a 17.5, needing to run around a 2.5 to 3.0:1 FDR.
01-02-2008, 06:13 PM
#20
Tech Regular
)run as fast or faster than the 13.5. If you use the 17.5 as the stock replacement it will not compete with the stocks in most conditions. If you get to 13.5 with Lipo against Stock with NiMH the stock will stomp the 13.5 in most conditions.
01-02-2008, 06:16 PM
#21
Just about every track in the country that allows BL has been using 10.5 as the replacement for 19T and 13.5 as a replacement for stock. In other words, many people already have those systems, ROAR changing that fairly widely accepted format will make things more expensive for those that already have systems. Yes, I know people would just have to buy a new motor, but BL motors aren't cheap. Plus, I've heard of people having issues even being able to gear high enough with a 17.5 in a pan car. Which then all of the sudden means there may be certain cars that will become obsolete in favor of car designs that allow for more pinion, people buying pinions they wouldn't normally use, etc.
It just doesn't seem feasible to find a close match with a stock motor and a brushed motor at this time with what is currently available. Doesn't it seem likely that if 13.5 was allowed to run in stock class that brushed motors would become obsolete (it's already happening), at least for a while... If 17.5 is allowed to run with stock brushless motors will be dumped in favor of a good brushed stock motor. Does ROAR feel comfortable with either of those things happening? It seems to be that weight allowance is the one thing that could help even up the current technology of brushed vs. brushless. It's something that many real racing series use as an equalizer and it's cheap... Increase the weight required for 13.5 and or decrease the weight for 27T. The problem is those weights need some time to be researched, I don't see it as something that can get worked out in a couple weeks time.
It just doesn't seem feasible to find a close match with a stock motor and a brushed motor at this time with what is currently available. Doesn't it seem likely that if 13.5 was allowed to run in stock class that brushed motors would become obsolete (it's already happening), at least for a while... If 17.5 is allowed to run with stock brushless motors will be dumped in favor of a good brushed stock motor. Does ROAR feel comfortable with either of those things happening? It seems to be that weight allowance is the one thing that could help even up the current technology of brushed vs. brushless. It's something that many real racing series use as an equalizer and it's cheap... Increase the weight required for 13.5 and or decrease the weight for 27T. The problem is those weights need some time to be researched, I don't see it as something that can get worked out in a couple weeks time.
Racers bought into BL because it was new, cool and made racing more fun. Rules were not in place to govern these motor because no one...not even the manufacturers of these motors knew what would end up being equivalent to existing brushed motors.
If you recall 2 years ago the Novak 4300(10.5) was supposed to be a stock motor and the 5800 (8.5 was supposed to be a 19T. Both were too fast.
Then it was 13.5 and 10.5 with bonded rotor but the rotors were a problem and they went to sintered rotors. The 13.5 became faster then stock but the 10.5 was right at 19T level.
Now finally it seems 17.5 is the right equivalent to a 27T stock motor.
The racers that bought BL motor were on the bleeding edge of motor development. I know I was aware that the BL motors I was buying my not be legal in the future and would need to be replaced at some time. I have mentioned this time and again over the last two years. Well...experiment time is over. Its time to write the best rules we can even if it is inconvienent.
ROAR has 2 responsibilities.
1. Look out for the racers interests
2. Look out for the health of our hobby
Sometimes these two goals are at odds with each other.
In this case racers have bought motors that may not be in the best interests of the hobby. Its pretty clear that 13.5 is too fast for stock class racing and for novices getting into the hobby. 17.5 are much better.
Here is my suggestion:
I believe that ROAR should make rules for to govern BL racing that are ideal for Regional and National level racing. This means BL motors that are equivalent in speed and power to the existing core National level classes. This keep things similar to what we are running now and doe not add new unnecessary classes.
17.5T/27T Stock/Spec BL
10.5T/19T Spec Mod/Spec Mod BL
BL/BR Open Modified
Those racers with 13.5T motors can continue to race them happily at the club level for as long as there is interest in continuing to run them. The rules for 13.5 will not be written but will be controlled by local race directors with guidance based on the ROAR rules just like everyone is doing right now.
We really don't need more classes.
Last edited by AdrianM; 01-02-2008 at 06:27 PM.
01-02-2008, 06:21 PM
#23
Originally Posted by Mr RCTech
Take a good look at the Snowbird race that draws racers from around the world every year.
Its the biggest and most popular race of the year.
What classes and rules do they use?
ROAR should look at the Snowbirds rules and consider them for guidelines.
Its my favorite race of the year!!
Its the biggest and most popular race of the year.
What classes and rules do they use?
ROAR should look at the Snowbirds rules and consider them for guidelines.
Its my favorite race of the year!!
Looks like this years BRUSHED classes may be over taken by the Brushless..time will tell...but I bet NEXT year you'll see MORE LIPO (This year only gets LIPO in 4wd Oval TRUCK I believe)
01-02-2008, 06:23 PM
#24
I think even if you can make a 27T run faster then a 17.5 27T motors will be history in one year. 27T motors are a pain to keep in top condition. You have to cut and rebrush every run and if you get them too hot outdoors in the summer you need a magnet zapper or a new motor to be fast again.
17.5 BL will rise to the top over 27T even if it is a bit slower.
Here is a similar example:
Its pretty clear that IB4200's are the fastest cells out there...but...racers are buying EP4200's and LiPo's like crazy because even though they are a little slower racing is cheaper and more enjoyable with them.
Let ROAR make the rules that are best for the long term longevity of our hobby.
17.5 BL will rise to the top over 27T even if it is a bit slower.
Here is a similar example:
Its pretty clear that IB4200's are the fastest cells out there...but...racers are buying EP4200's and LiPo's like crazy because even though they are a little slower racing is cheaper and more enjoyable with them.
Let ROAR make the rules that are best for the long term longevity of our hobby.
01-02-2008, 06:24 PM
#25
I agree with Adrian.
"17.5T/27T Stock/Spec BL
10.5T/19T Spec Mod/Spec Mod BL
BL/BR Open Modified
Those racers with 13.5T motors can continue to race them happily at the club level for as long as there is interest in continuing to run them. The rules for 13.5 will not be written but will be controlled by local race directors with guidance based on the ROAR rules just like everyone is doing right now.?
"17.5T/27T Stock/Spec BL
10.5T/19T Spec Mod/Spec Mod BL
BL/BR Open Modified
Those racers with 13.5T motors can continue to race them happily at the club level for as long as there is interest in continuing to run them. The rules for 13.5 will not be written but will be controlled by local race directors with guidance based on the ROAR rules just like everyone is doing right now.?
01-02-2008, 06:28 PM
#26
SW your right a lot of classes that cover 2 completely different forms of racing. If you put two club races together you would have more classes than the bird
dont drag a good race down
dont drag a good race down
01-02-2008, 06:29 PM
#27
01-02-2008, 06:34 PM
#29
...I understand the concern about the 13.5.
While 13.5's were getting popular for On-Road early in '07, several of our OVAL Racers wanted something SLOWER than the 10.5 and closer to STOCK
(Which is why I got involved in SLOWER MOTOR TESTING)
I told them (AND Showed them) that a 13.5 would run SO close to what a 10.5 would...that the TOP 13.5 guys would qualify in the top 3-4 positions in the 10.5 class almost EVERY time.
One of the really cool things though about BRUSHLESS MOTORS, unlike a Brushed Motor - they have a better RESALE value.
To do all the testing I was involved with this year - I bought 12 brushless motors. MOST of them I bought HERE on RCTech USED. Average Price 45-65 dollars. I used them, tested with them...learned as much as I could about them..and even dyno'd them....and just recently I sold 5 of them (For the same 45-65 each) 2 of these were 13.5 motors, one was a 5.5, one was a LRP motor and one was an OLD Style 4300.
So even IF a racer has a 13.5 motor and has NO use for it...it can be ReSOLD, or if it's a NOVAK motor..it can be traded in toward the purchase of a NEW motor of your desire. (Unless it's burnt up - SELLING it will usually get you MORE $$)
While 13.5's were getting popular for On-Road early in '07, several of our OVAL Racers wanted something SLOWER than the 10.5 and closer to STOCK
(Which is why I got involved in SLOWER MOTOR TESTING)
I told them (AND Showed them) that a 13.5 would run SO close to what a 10.5 would...that the TOP 13.5 guys would qualify in the top 3-4 positions in the 10.5 class almost EVERY time.
One of the really cool things though about BRUSHLESS MOTORS, unlike a Brushed Motor - they have a better RESALE value.
To do all the testing I was involved with this year - I bought 12 brushless motors. MOST of them I bought HERE on RCTech USED. Average Price 45-65 dollars. I used them, tested with them...learned as much as I could about them..and even dyno'd them....and just recently I sold 5 of them (For the same 45-65 each) 2 of these were 13.5 motors, one was a 5.5, one was a LRP motor and one was an OLD Style 4300.
So even IF a racer has a 13.5 motor and has NO use for it...it can be ReSOLD, or if it's a NOVAK motor..it can be traded in toward the purchase of a NEW motor of your desire. (Unless it's burnt up - SELLING it will usually get you MORE $$)
01-02-2008, 06:35 PM
#30
Speaking in terms of road course racing. Oval is completely different.
A 15.5 would have been a great motor for the stock equivalent. 17.5 is a touch slower and 13.5 is faster.
19t and 10.5 are as close as it gets.