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Old 01-03-2008, 06:14 AM   #121
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After reading through all these posts it sounds like the BL classes that are somewhat being agreed on are 17.5 (STOCK), 10.5 (new 19T), and Mod (Open to BR/BL).

The way I look at this is, ROAR needs to make a decision that will allow BL in all classes, period. If it is decided that stock will stay "BR only", it will force newbies away from Stock. The next class up for BL would be 10.5/19T, and newbies will get highly discouraged in that class. A newbie does not want to break tons of parts and get their asses handed to them all the time, thus all the discussion about slowing down stock.

Something we all need to realize it that GEN-Y wants more instant gratification. Investing time and money into learning how to tune and rebuild BR motors just doesn't interest most of GEN-Y. This group need to be able to race on a single motor and battery all day. This is why we have seen LiPo and BL invigorating the hobby a little. But not having RULES to allow them across the board is still hampering the hobby.

Regarding LiPo's, am I understanding Dawn correctly in stating that LiPo would only be allowed in Stock? If so, why? It's been established that LiPo is cheaper and slightly slower than NiMh packs.

What would really make "STOCK" Sedan Class racing cheap and intersting would be to require 27T/17.5 BL motors, LiPo 7.4V battery, and rubber tires. This would help make STOCK racing attendance increase by lowering the cost greatly.
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Old 01-03-2008, 06:39 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by C_O_jones View Post
Don't lump us com turners into one group, the majority of these people that I have met, really do enjoy rebuilding and tweeking brushed motors, we consider it part of "racing"
Everyone that races is looking for an edge, from tires/foams to chassis all the way to different bodies, why leave out the art of building "race" motors?
Isn't the motor the main part of racing?
In nitro, why are there all kinds of "builders" on the market, ...
A-men, I'm not the fastest but after returning from a 9 yr 'pitstop' I had a lot of ground to make up, including motors. It was hard, time consuming, and FUN, it is a hobby NOT a sport, till we see some kind of ranking and progress system for drivers it NEVER will be.

Dawn, Since ROAR represents it's members how about a ballot vote on the opinons of those members. I'm not against BL but I also don't want BR to Die. I run 13.5 BL in T/C were BR motors recieve the most abuse but have had well tuned BR motors keep up. I've tried 13.5 in 1/12 it is faster, perhpas these motors should be rated differently, say T/C stock differs from 1/12 stock, That would allow BL to run with BR at least for a year or 2 and perhaps we will just see the BR thing go away.
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Old 01-03-2008, 06:45 AM   #123
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I havent read through all the post but these are my thoughts:

Stock - 27T brushed only
19T Brushed - Get rid of it
10.5 or 13.5 brushless spec class (if you absolutely had to allow brushed in this class then make it a 19T brushed / 10.5 class)
Mod (brushed or brushless)

allow lipo in all classes.

Now that is what I believe could work. What I would really like to see:

Stock - 27T brushed only
13.5 / lipo spec class (with a lower weight)
Mod (brushed or brushless)

In the scenario above I believe we would finally see most of the membership move up to the "spec" class and we would truly have a stock/"novice" class.
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Old 01-03-2008, 06:52 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by kn7671 View Post
What would really make "STOCK" Sedan Class racing cheap and intersting would be to require 27T/17.5 BL motors, LiPo 7.4V battery, and rubber tires. This would help make STOCK racing attendance increase by lowering the cost greatly.
A 17.5 in T/C will not keep up with a tuned BR, we've tried it, no matter wear it's geared it is slower in the infield and straights.
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Old 01-03-2008, 07:07 AM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by or8ital View Post
I havent read through all the post but these are my thoughts:

Stock - 27T brushed only
19T Brushed - Get rid of it
10.5 or 13.5 brushless spec class (if you absolutely had to allow brushed in this class then make it a 19T brushed / 10.5 class)
Mod (brushed or brushless)

allow lipo in all classes.

Now that is what I believe could work. What I would really like to see:

Stock - 27T brushed only
13.5 / lipo spec class (with a lower weight)
Mod (brushed or brushless)

In the scenario above I believe we would finally see most of the membership move up to the "spec" class and we would truly have a stock/"novice" class.
Except that you have left the novice that we want to make things easy for with a pain in the a$$ motor to keep up with. Make it 17.5 and they will be happier.

...and since the motor is slower in a sedan fast guys will want to move up to 10.5.
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Old 01-03-2008, 07:14 AM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C_O_jones View Post
Don't lump us com turners into one group, the majority of these people that I have met, really do enjoy rebuilding and tweeking brushed motors, we consider it part of "racing"
Everyone that races is looking for an edge, from tires/foams to chassis all the way to different bodies, why leave out the art of building "race" motors?
Isn't the motor the main part of racing?
In nitro, why are there all kinds of "builders" on the market, well, to find a stronger faster engine.
You want to kill the heart of racing and force us all to use the standard "box" motor?

Leave BL to mod, keep "racing" in all the other classes!
wow. if you want to play with motors, you should be in the MOD class which allow for that sort of thing. On the flip side, No one is stopping you from fixing tolerance issues or using your own spring/brush combo in stock or 19T (super stock) classes. I am only proposing to give the racers a choice (and i've even compromised on a slower option). That's all I have stated. The market will decide as it has always have.
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Old 01-03-2008, 07:15 AM   #127
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Except that you have left the novice that we want to make things easy for with a pain in the a$$ motor to keep up with. Make it 17.5 and they will be happier.

...and since the motor is slower in a sedan fast guys will want to move up to 10.5.
Yeah I guess you are right. Assuming true novice racers are really pushing motors like the rest of us are then it is a maintenance nightmare. But I guess it gets back to the "cost of entry" vs "long term cost" dilemma. ROAR seems to want to keep the cost of entry down as to grow the hobby. Which is all good and well but the secret we all know is that long-term it is costing them more. If we really want to keep the cost of entry down then the stock class should be the closed endbell silver can motors (until brushless can get down in price).
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Old 01-03-2008, 07:54 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by kn7671 View Post
Regarding LiPo's, am I understanding Dawn correctly in stating that LiPo would only be allowed in Stock? If so, why? It's been established that LiPo is cheaper and slightly slower than NiMh packs.
Nope.. my bad for not making that clear in my posts... long day yesterday.. LOL

I believe we will have Lipo usage in all classes... except 1/12th at this point in time. Lipo is just another battery source - no clear advantage over metal batteries - when weight specifications are required, met and maintained ... from what I see.

We will know more in about 10 days when we finalize the 2008 rule book.
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Old 01-03-2008, 07:56 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by miller tyme View Post
Dawn, Since ROAR represents it's members how about a ballot vote on the opinons of those members..

If we had the time to do this, we would offer an online 'advisory vote' to the Excom on this topic. Unfortunatley, we do not as we must get the 2008 rule book out by the end of the month. Teh Excom meets in about 10 days and we have already had several discussions regarding this.

Honestly, we will have to make decisions for the long term health of the hobby. Yep, I know we'll have some mud slung at me for the decision by some and we'll be praised by others.....
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Old 01-03-2008, 08:07 AM   #130
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Dawn
If Roar decides to not use handouts at Nationals...


Include in the spec`s for the new Brushless stock to include a sealed can so it will be taper proof...

Otherwise , there will be a lack of credibility in the legality of the motor`s and spec racing will suffer as a result...

If Roar does not include this specification the door will be wide open for anyone to tune their motor for a advantage...

Not good....
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Old 01-03-2008, 08:11 AM   #131
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Dawn
If Roar decides to not use handouts at Nationals...


.
George... your not a ROAR member.... I can't hear you until you are...



Kidding.... I understand what your saying.
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Old 01-03-2008, 08:12 AM   #132
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Lets face it brushless is the future, and the rules should have already been submitted.

Here are practice lap times from the Novak race:

These are for foam:

13.5 best 10.2
10.5 not many people running yet most are the same as 13.5 times
Mod most are 9.8-9.9, Blackstock ran 9.6 but said he was going to slow it down some, too in consistant.

13.5 is just way too fast for regular stock racers only .4th off of Mod. Stock has to be 17.5 or higher.

13.5 and 10.5 are almost the same so pick one. They are too close to each other and we only need one or the other.

Let's use the Novak race as a barometer to see what works and get some rules submitted.

The biggest problem is the cars are way too fast. We need to drop down to 4 or 5 cells in order to grow this hobby. Lipo is not the answer because the voltage is just too high.

Wisconsin has come up with a new Trans Am class 4 cell brushed and everyone is having a blast. Car are slower but the racing is way closer and a blast to watch, and the cars don't break since they are going slower.
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Old 01-03-2008, 08:12 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Wild Cherry View Post
Dawn
If Roar decides to not use handouts at Nationals...


Include in the spec`s for the new Brushless stock to include a sealed can so it will be taper proof...

Otherwise , there will be a lack of credibility in the legality of the motor`s and spec racing will suffer as a result...

If Roar does not include this specification the door will be wide open for anyone to tune their motor for a advantage...

Not good....
Could you elaborate on this? You dont want the can to be opened at all so it cant even be cleaned? Seems like what Novak is doing (with the color bands) keeps people from cheating. I would rather just have a rule that it must be easily recognizable and of course go through motor approval.
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Old 01-03-2008, 08:14 AM   #134
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MOD Brushless/Brushed
10.5 brushless/ 19 brushed
17.5 Stock....

I suggest for roar to make guidelines for all these races but drop stock from the nationals and that will fix your stock into becoming beginner friendly again.
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Old 01-03-2008, 08:15 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by fred kellner View Post
Lets face it brushless is the future, and the rules should have already been submitted.

Here are practice lap times from the Novak race:

These are for foam:

13.5 best 10.2
10.5 not many people running yet most are the same as 13.5 times
Mod most are 9.8-9.9, Blackstock ran 9.6 but said he was going to slow it down some, too in consistant.

13.5 is just way too fast for regular stock racers only .4th off of Mod. Stock has to be 17.5 or higher.

13.5 and 10.5 are almost the same so pick one. They are too close to each other and we only need one or the other.

Let's use the Novak race as a barometer to see what works and get some rules submitted.

The biggest problem is the cars are way too fast. We need to drop down to 4 or 5 cells in order to grow this hobby. Lipo is not the answer because the voltage is just too high.

Wisconsin has come up with a new Trans Am class 4 cell brushed and everyone is having a blast. Car are slower but the racing is way closer and a blast to watch, and the cars don't break since they are going slower.
Why not just say "i hate lipo batteries". If you want to slow it down go to more turns like you said at the beginning of the post. Dont take away something that actually makes the hobby cheaper (and recently safer). If you want a really slow class go to a 3.7v lipo class.
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