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Old 01-12-2008, 10:17 AM   #826
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Maybe I'm not the highest voltage cell in the pack, but I don't get your point.
think he's saying the rtr market is not designed around getting people to the track with the high mph advertising and wide range of motors included with them. most people say "oh i have to buy another motor just to race" because the majority of RTR's are different or way over the top for track action.

anyways, speed channel does what they do best during winter. not showing 85 hours of nascar and showing all the other racing we missed out on this year. right now its DTM. later on will probably be some dirt oval or off-road. thankye for nascar off-season.
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Old 01-12-2008, 10:31 AM   #827
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Originally Posted by sportpak View Post
It all sucks, but brushless motors and systems have been out several years now. How could anyone who races be completely blind to the fact that BL is here to stay and it's only a matter of time. I kicked myself for buying 3 stock motors and a speedo this year. Give it a chance and you'll kick yourself too.
That BL has been around for several years and still has no structure, other than mod is the scary part.
The manufacturers, other than Novak haven't gotten involved with ROAR, there is no standardized speedo, sensored/unsensord, same with motors.
The 13.5 has gone thru 3 rotor changes and they are not done yet.

BL should be able to compete with brushed, but give brushed a chance to develop, magnets, 4 pole comms and bearings for stock. The rules have kept brushed motor development stagnate, but a big jump in BL development is allowed?

Let them race together for 2 to 3 years on an equal footing and see how developments work out.
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Old 01-12-2008, 10:33 AM   #828
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And we do what with all of our brushed stuff?

My son and I both race, we have at least 2 cars each, that comes to me owning 6 brushed speedos an assortment of stock and 19t with a few mod motors thrown in, not to mention my inventory of brushes and equipment to go with then.
I should just dump them to run ROAR races and spend about $300 each for six cars to go BL?

I spend an average of $6K a year plus travel expenses and thats over the last 5 years.

I wont put that kind of another investment into BL and that would force me to quit RC racing.
You tell the hobby shops and tracks that I'm gone. How many new people would it take to replace me, and that replacement would be needed right now.

You guys need to think about what us comm turners would do if it went all BL!



EBay all that stuff, quick !!!!

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Old 01-12-2008, 11:04 AM   #829
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not to keep it off topic but..
does the AMA sanction racing?

What are you kidding?

The AMA sanctions well over a hundred different classes of competition including pylon racing, aerobatics, and combat (yes, combat!) And not only radio control, but control line and free flight as well. That would be like if ROAR still had a national class for 1/8 on road pan cars! (and there are probaly about 30 racers out there waiting for that day!)
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Old 01-12-2008, 11:04 AM   #830
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Bob I agree with MOST of what you've posted recently but here you are missing the one BIG distinction. RC is a hobby, Motocross is considered a Sport with TV coverage and big named stars that even those not engrossed in the sport reconized.
Not that I agree with this situation but it is the reality of where we fit in society
To me, your comment stating that R/C racing is more of a hobby than motocross means that Bob's comments and opinions are even more appropriate.

For the most part, the people visiting these forums are the hardcore racers. If you go to your local track, you will find that we make up a very small percentage of the people showing up. Most of the people in our hobby have no desire to put in the time necessary to become one of the best drivers at their home track, let alone in the nation. It is truly a hobby for them and all they want to do is run their car against other racers knowing that there is a set of rules in place to keep it somewhat fair.

Here is the really big point. ROAR makes the rules that 99% of the tracks use, or at least base their rules on. Even though ROAR is primarily focused on the racers, their influence goes far beyond the regional and national events that they sanction. So encouraging ROAR to come up with rules that might help us keep newer racers involved and attract even more new racers is definitely a good thing.


It's all good. Whatever ROAR comes up with, we'll work with. It won't be perfect, but it will be their best effort. If it can be improved, there will be another rule session next year.
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Old 01-12-2008, 11:04 AM   #831
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My son and I both race, we have at least 2 cars each, that comes to me owning 6 brushed speedos an assortment of stock and 19t with a few mod motors thrown in, not to mention my inventory of brushes and equipment to go with then.
I should just dump them to run ROAR races and spend about $300 each for six cars to go BL?
My son and I run run 2-3 cars EACH per race day too.

We made the switch to B/L & LIPO in '07.

I SOLD some GOOD USED Brushed Motors + my C.E. TURBODYNO 45, Comm Lathe, and ALL my Brushed Motor building stuff.

With those funds I bought 3 GTB ESC's and a LRP Sphere Comp. (Total 4 ESC's)

8 "USED" B/L motors, mostly 10.5's, and a couple 13.5's.

On a race day when we now run 3 cars EACH - 2 of them will still be Brushed - the other 4 BRUSHLESS...and all I can say is WOW - it's so NICE Not dealing w/ the MOTORS in those other cars...and within the next 2 months, I plan to replace THE OTHER 2 w/ Brushless too.

To me the benefit of

a)Not having to rebuild motors for ALL these cars is awesome

b)Not having to lug my comm lathe, and dyno around is awesome

c)Not worrying about "opps, I didn't freshen THAT motor up..and NOW the brush is hanging" is awesome.

d)Not having a box w/ 15-20 motors in it for spares... yup - AWESOME.

If you are a guy who WANTS to spend 'big bucks', there is stuff for you to do it with. BUT if you are on a much smaller budget...you can get GOOD used equip, or look at things like at NOVAK where you can get the "original' GTB off their web site for around $130.00. (These are the ESC's I use, and they work GREAT)

Used motors... Novak 13.5's, 10.5's or the HOTTER ones are out there all the time for 35 - 60 bucks. (I picked up 2 of the 4300's I had for less than $35.00 Each w/o sintered rotors)

NOTE: I was afraid of Brushless, and waited almost 2 years watching guys with it before I was able to convience myself about the benefits
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Old 01-12-2008, 11:06 AM   #832
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DO I NEED TO REPEAT THIS IN AN EVEN LARGER FONT?!!


haven't you heard......
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Old 01-12-2008, 11:07 AM   #833
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think he's saying the rtr market is not designed around getting people to the track with the high mph advertising and wide range of motors included with them. most people say "oh i have to buy another motor just to race" because the majority of RTR's are different or way over the top for track action.

anyways, speed channel does what they do best during winter. not showing 85 hours of nascar and showing all the other racing we missed out on this year. right now its DTM. later on will probably be some dirt oval or off-road. thankye for nascar off-season.
I wasn't referring to the RTR market in either hobby. Heck, add the RTF park fliers (which AMA just did) and you nearly double the hobby again!
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Old 01-12-2008, 11:18 AM   #834
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That BL has been around for several years and still has no structure, other than mod is the scary part.
The manufacturers, other than Novak haven't gotten involved with ROAR, there is no standardized speedo, sensored/unsensord, same with motors.
The 13.5 has gone thru 3 rotor changes and they are not done yet.

BL should be able to compete with brushed, but give brushed a chance to develop, magnets, 4 pole comms and bearings for stock. The rules have kept brushed motor development stagnate, but a big jump in BL development is allowed?

Let them race together for 2 to 3 years on an equal footing and see how developments work out.
Actually, all the US BL motor manufacturers have been very involved with ROAR in developing the upcoming BL stock motor rules, (not just Novak). Not all companies actually manufacture BL motors, many import motors from China.

ROAR has never approved speed controls, and is unlikely to do so any time soon. Actually, we have discussed offering a stock-only BL speed control here at Novak. It would be relatively easy to develop the limited stock profiles programming for an XBR-style esc. But would other manufacturers be willing to offer the same limited programming and would customers be willing to purchase such a controller?

I think that is highly unlikely that the brush motor importers will make the large financial investment to redesign brush motors in the manner wished for above.

Another small point, the Novak tuning rotor (the 3rd, 13.5 rotor) was not designed for use in stock racing, only mod. Will racers use it, anyway? Probably. But it can be easily identified without disassembling the motor, so it can be restricted.
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Old 01-12-2008, 12:10 PM   #835
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Actually, all the US BL motor manufacturers have been very involved with ROAR in developing the upcoming BL stock motor rules, (not just Novak). Not all companies actually manufacture BL motors, many import motors from China.

ROAR has never approved speed controls, and is unlikely to do so any time soon. Actually, we have discussed offering a stock-only BL speed control here at Novak. It would be relatively easy to develop the limited stock profiles programming for an XBR-style esc. But would other manufacturers be willing to offer the same limited programming and would customers be willing to purchase such a controller?

I think that is highly unlikely that the brush motor importers will make the large financial investment to redesign brush motors in the manner wished for above.

Another small point, the Novak tuning rotor (the 3rd, 13.5 rotor) was not designed for use in stock racing, only mod. Will racers use it, anyway? Probably. But it can be easily identified without disassembling the motor, so it can be restricted.
I respect Novak for getting involved from the beginning and until recently they were the only ones involved.
ROAR has a big job on there hands and are finally getting around to do something about BL. Good to see a change of direction with the new pres.

Besides, I don't want to get rid of my GTX's.
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Old 01-12-2008, 12:58 PM   #836
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Maybe I'm not the highest voltage cell in the pack, but I don't get your point.
The ponit is Flying RC planes is generally done purely for liesure and fun, AMA encompasses a broader range of enthusiest than just competitors. As Region 1 director how much of your ROAR duties involve the bashers just having fun.

It is easy to get a 200-400 RTF kit get it up in the air and be content with it for much longer than a 400 RTR T/C used at your local race track.

I for one am an avid racer, with a full garage of cars running twice a week and ussually 2 class each day, I enjoy tuning brushed motors and I match my own batteries, and I've been doing it since 1985 with a short break in mid to late '90s. So this is merely an observation of how I think it is percieved from the outside looking in and not my personal veiwpoint.
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Old 01-12-2008, 01:48 PM   #837
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I for one am an avid racer, with a full garage of cars running twice a week and ussually 2 class each day, I enjoy tuning brushed motors and I match my own batteries, and I've been doing it since 1985 with a short break in mid to late '90s. So this is merely an observation of how I think it is percieved from the outside looking in and not my personal veiwpoint.
"Avid" racer?? Whens the last time you looked in the mirror.
See you in the morning buddy.
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Old 01-12-2008, 01:54 PM   #838
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"Avid" racer?? Whens the last time you looked in the mirror.
See you in the morning buddy.
bring your 1/12, unless Garth & entourage show there won't be enough for rubber tire, but we should have a full 1/12 br stk and a small heat of 13.5.
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Old 01-12-2008, 02:10 PM   #839
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Whats the topic again?

The topic i think is ROAR B/L motor rules... There are 3 distint rules:
-mod (already taken care of, mod is mod run what u got)
-19T the next generation(b/l at XX.5 turns)
-27T the next generation(b/l at XX.5 turns)

The issues are what should the rules be.(specs,cost,turns,wieght size ect ect) Right now we have 19T and 27T motor rules that are great in my opinion, track size is not up for debate,cost of chassis,tires batteries or bodies is not the topic either.. What will be the rules for BL motors that are meant to replace or at least allow a transition from brushed to brushless with out loosing racers. We need a set of rules that will allow the 2 motors to run side by side like they did in motorcross with the move from 2stroke to 4 stroke when they raced side by side....(with different displacements)

For me we run 27T at my club, we want to continue with the ROAR rules in terms of stock racing. We want to see a ROAR stock BL motor rule that we can adopt that will illiminate the issues we have now with BL. No standards no one agrees on what is stock or near equivilant to 27T. We understand some will stay with brushed for some time so we also want to make sure our next generation stock motor class uses BL motors with similar performance to the current 27T classes. I dont think we need to rehash how none of the 27T are equal and that there are various levels of performance yadayada..

Im i way off here? Are we not looking for ROAR rules the will guide us into the next 10-20 years of racing just as they have for 27T racing and the not so new or old 19T class racing?? Im really confused how we get so side tracked about cost of racing and tv coverage. Those are separate issues.
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Old 01-12-2008, 02:49 PM   #840
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Originally Posted by C_O_jones View Post
That BL has been around for several years and still has no structure, other than mod is the scary part.
The manufacturers, other than Novak haven't gotten involved with ROAR, there is no standardized speedo, sensored/unsensord, same with motors.
The 13.5 has gone thru 3 rotor changes and they are not done yet.

BL should be able to compete with brushed, but give brushed a chance to develop, magnets, 4 pole comms and bearings for stock. The rules have kept brushed motor development stagnate, but a big jump in BL development is allowed?

Let them race together for 2 to 3 years on an equal footing and see how developments work out.
I thought I would add that I was talking to Ernie at Trinity about something like this a year or two ago. If Trinity (or whoever) was allowed to research and develop a 27turn brushed stock motor with a $130 retail (like BL), we'd have substantially better stuff... Especially if they didn't have to conform to any rule and could literally start over with a clean slate. Kind of unfair, really to compare them at all, with BL motors triple the price. Hmmm.
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