ROAR B/L motor Rules debate thread
01-11-2008, 07:26 PM
#811
Every parent thinks their kid is the next Tiger Woods, or McGrath. Perhaps the direction ROAR should be looking is how to get RC to be taken more seriously than a bunch of overgrown kids playing with toy-cars, I say this as one of the biggest kids in line. my wife says I'll never grew up and I just agree.
01-11-2008, 08:15 PM
#812
Roar should just ask the manufacturers what they plan on putting in future brushless powered RTR's and make that the stock class motor. The RTR's being race ready/legal out of the box would benefit Roar, racing, and the hobby.
A manufacturer's RTR kit would be sold across the country with just one motor in it. That motor should be legal for stock racing across the country. If a RTR is going to come with a different motor than a 13.5 for instance, then the customer is supposed to go buy a new $90 brushless motor for his brand new kit to race in stock class?
A manufacturer's RTR kit would be sold across the country with just one motor in it. That motor should be legal for stock racing across the country. If a RTR is going to come with a different motor than a 13.5 for instance, then the customer is supposed to go buy a new $90 brushless motor for his brand new kit to race in stock class?
I would love to see this happen. But you know why it will never happen? Because HPI,TRAXXAS,OFNA and others would not be able to have in large bold FONT 55 MPH,60MPH or 70MPH!... There bread and butter is selling to the wide eyed kid or adult that huge RTR MPH box. Even though these cars cannot hit those speeds on a race track...
As for the brushed vs brushless needing to be equal i dont think that its as important as being close to what we have now. Assuming that 27T,19T and mod are currenlty accepted for the past 5 years as being the 3 defining classes for most any rc racing in north america(here in ontario CANADA its one of the 3 in most every class we race) Do we need a 17.5 to be just like a 27t? No but close enough that transitioning excisting brushed classes into brushless is posible withouth creating 3 new classes ontop of the 3 we have...
In my opinion mod is not even up for debate, stock 27t and 19t are the ones we need to evolve into next generation brushless rules. We need a stock brushless class that is similar to 27T in terms of:
-stamping ROAR,XX.5T,timing rings,color coding ECT ECT for teching
-construction restrictions(materials,wire guage ect ect)
-MSRP We dont run 90$ stock motors so our brushless stocks should not be the same cost as a 3.5R motor they should be capped at a lower price
As a next generation roar stock brushless rule set i want it to be as simple as current roar 27t rules. New guy asks what motor for your stock class? I tell him any ROAR legal 27T motor or ROAR LEGAL STOCK BRUSHLESS MOTOR(in what ever the turn ends up being) The end result of how fast they go to me is not important as long as they are not alot faster then what stock is now.
For 19t i feel the same way.
Track size should not be in the debate. Clubs that run outdoors probably dont run stock anyway. When we used to race outdoors we ran mod... Why cuz you could pick your nose,talk on the phone and swat flies going down the 200ft straight waiting for the stock motor to get you to the other end.
Im excited to see what ROAR comes up with
01-11-2008, 08:30 PM
#813
The stock wind motors Novak currently offers cost more to manufacture than the modified (lower wind) motors. the 17.5T uses exactly the same cans, laminations, stators, rotors, etc. as the modified motors. But the higher wind motors use more copper wire and require more labor to do the additional winding.
01-11-2008, 08:31 PM
#814
Tech Regular
I know this is great fun but do you guys realize this is page 28!
I am addicted to the damn thread and probably check in ten times a day, but everyone must see by now that the reason we have sanctioning bodies is because all of us that do the racing will never agree.
I agree with the previous post.....can't wait to see what ROAR does. As long as there is a Mod, 10.5,13.5 and something slower for clubs to use for beginners it is good with me (how's that for slipping in my opinion once again).
I am addicted to the damn thread and probably check in ten times a day, but everyone must see by now that the reason we have sanctioning bodies is because all of us that do the racing will never agree.
I agree with the previous post.....can't wait to see what ROAR does. As long as there is a Mod, 10.5,13.5 and something slower for clubs to use for beginners it is good with me (how's that for slipping in my opinion once again).
01-11-2008, 09:14 PM
#815
If it's soley a financial decision, explain how it is I saw 400+ racers at the last Motocross event I was at in Montana? I was there with (2) $6500 bikes, a trailer, $1000 worth of custom knee braces, another $1000 in protective gear, etc...etc...
ROAR could give everybody on this thread motors and batteries for free, half the people would start a thread, "thanks for the crappy motor, I can't win with it...".
People spend money on hobbies, and it doesn't matter WHAT it is, as long as they are having fun. The minute the fun is over, they find another hobby that is just as expensive, or is the equivalent to whatever money they have to blow on the hobby and entertainment.
ROAR could give everybody on this thread motors and batteries for free, half the people would start a thread, "thanks for the crappy motor, I can't win with it...".
People spend money on hobbies, and it doesn't matter WHAT it is, as long as they are having fun. The minute the fun is over, they find another hobby that is just as expensive, or is the equivalent to whatever money they have to blow on the hobby and entertainment.
Just looking at my own hobbies besides RC in the past and present. I raced shifter karts, I'd go back to it in a heartbeat if I could afford it, but at the time it was my dad footing the bill. I would imagine that's the case with many of those motocross racers you saw at that race. I got into RC thanks to my dad as well. In both cases he got me into it because it was something he wanted to do and also something we could do together. Kerting we started out witha used kart that we found in the paper, the guy had no idea what he had and we got it cheap. Once we were both hooked money was more easily spent. For RC my dad bought an old 12i off of someone, but somehow got sidetracked and in the closet it sat for a while until offroad tracks started popping up and he was reminded of it. I was old enough at that point to do the hobby with him. We got RC10s which had just come out and skimped a bit on the rest. It was expensive but even with inflation rates it was dirt cheap compared to what it would be like to get in racing today. We later got better equipment and started racing 1/12th scale and were much happier. However, I'm not sure it would have ever happened if from the start someone told us we needed to spend the kind of money we did on 1/12th scale.
Aquariums, this was my hobby with my mom, it started out with simple freshwater stuff, later progressed to simple saltwater, and then reef aquariums which I still keep and have for 20+ years. I would imagine that most of those kids that are racing motocross started out with a simple dirtbike to mess around with in the backyard, in many cases probably some cheap used thing. The basic point is there are stepping stones. You can start those hobbies cheaply and then once you're hooked spending the money is justifiable because you know you already like it. Not sure why cheap RC cars don't work well in the same regard, maybe it's because they're so different from the cars we race
Also, there's the exposure factor. I would imagine the majority of americans at least know that motocross exists. Very few know that racing RC cars on a competitive level exists. People look at me like I'm insane when I've told them I race RC cars. They can't even fathom what it's like, and once they do they still have a hard time understanding that it's not just some silly thing that mostly kids do. My dad and I got out of RC the first time because all of my local tracks closed down. I had been living 15 minutes from Trackside for over 5 years before I even realized it existed. Had I known earlier and that RC was still going fairly strong I would have been back in the hobby years before. Plus it's just us nerds and geeks racing RC for the most part, it has managed to avoid the mainstream for years. Perhaps due to lack of promotion, perhaps it's just because it'll never be a "cool" think to do. I don't have all the answers, but I think I can see some of the problems pretty well.
Perhaps this is something ROAR should focus more on. Getting some exposure for the hobby. Letting people know that it exists and that there is probably a track near you. I mean how is it you could find lawnmower racing on cable (sorry Bob
) but RC has never managed to get any exposure... Then the other trick would be finding a way to get people into the hobby at a low cost. Once people find the hobby at a relatively cheap cost the hobby will grow and people that can afford it will spend money for the top of the line gear. As it stands now there is no class at most local tracks that people can get into for low dollars.P.S. Bob, thanks for the insight on the 1/12th scale cars!
01-11-2008, 10:31 PM
#816
This is absolutely amazing! This thread has stayed extremely civil, and there have been a ton of different opinions given here. Thanks to everybody here for showing that sensitive issues CAN be discussed on the internet!
I posted earlier in the thread, probably 20 pages ago, and since then we've seen a lot of new discussions, so I figured I'd chime in again based on some of these comments.
As ROAR starts down the path of the brushless road, it is the perfect time to make the big break. There is no way we will ever achieve parity between a brushed and brushless motor in any limited class, so to include brushed in the rules will do nothing but cause arguments. Even if the overall power is the same, the power delivery will make either the brushed or brushless definitively superior to the other depending on the track and it's conditions. This is not the power parity that these classes are intended to create.
I also agree wholeheartedly with Mr. Stormer that we need to dramatically slow down the "Stock" or Introductory class and ensure that there is a distinct difference in the 'feel' of the power between the classes. I also feel that we need to have no more than three 'motor' classes. Our hobby was at it's strongest when we had just two, so going too far beyond that is not the path to growth in the hobby.
As for WHAT the motors should be... Maybe they don't exist yet. We've all been talking about the 13.5, 17.5, 21.5 and 10.5 because that is what they are making now. This doesn't mean we have to stick with them. The best Introductory motor might be a 16.5, or a 18.5, or a 19.5... and the Intermediate motor might need to end up somewhere between the 13.5 and the 10.5.
If you want to keep running your brushed motors, talk to your local track owner and see what they will do. Run whatever you want locally, but the nationally recognized classes need to go brushless.
I posted earlier in the thread, probably 20 pages ago, and since then we've seen a lot of new discussions, so I figured I'd chime in again based on some of these comments.
As ROAR starts down the path of the brushless road, it is the perfect time to make the big break. There is no way we will ever achieve parity between a brushed and brushless motor in any limited class, so to include brushed in the rules will do nothing but cause arguments. Even if the overall power is the same, the power delivery will make either the brushed or brushless definitively superior to the other depending on the track and it's conditions. This is not the power parity that these classes are intended to create.
I also agree wholeheartedly with Mr. Stormer that we need to dramatically slow down the "Stock" or Introductory class and ensure that there is a distinct difference in the 'feel' of the power between the classes. I also feel that we need to have no more than three 'motor' classes. Our hobby was at it's strongest when we had just two, so going too far beyond that is not the path to growth in the hobby.
As for WHAT the motors should be... Maybe they don't exist yet. We've all been talking about the 13.5, 17.5, 21.5 and 10.5 because that is what they are making now. This doesn't mean we have to stick with them. The best Introductory motor might be a 16.5, or a 18.5, or a 19.5... and the Intermediate motor might need to end up somewhere between the 13.5 and the 10.5.
If you want to keep running your brushed motors, talk to your local track owner and see what they will do. Run whatever you want locally, but the nationally recognized classes need to go brushless.
My son and I both race, we have at least 2 cars each, that comes to me owning 6 brushed speedos an assortment of stock and 19t with a few mod motors thrown in, not to mention my inventory of brushes and equipment to go with then.
I should just dump them to run ROAR races and spend about $300 each for six cars to go BL?
I spend an average of $6K a year plus travel expenses and thats over the last 5 years.
I wont put that kind of another investment into BL and that would force me to quit RC racing.
You tell the hobby shops and tracks that I'm gone. How many new people would it take to replace me, and that replacement would be needed right now.
You guys need to think about what us comm turners would do if it went all BL!
J/K buddy!
01-11-2008, 10:47 PM
#819
And we do what with all of our brushed stuff?
My son and I both race, we have at least 2 cars each, that comes to me owning 6 brushed speedos an assortment of stock and 19t with a few mod motors thrown in, not to mention my inventory of brushes and equipment to go with then.
I should just dump them to run ROAR races and spend about $300 each for six cars to go BL?
I spend an average of $6K a year plus travel expenses and thats over the last 5 years.
I wont put that kind of another investment into BL and that would force me to quit RC racing.
You tell the hobby shops and tracks that I'm gone. How many new people would it take to replace me, and that replacement would be needed right now.
You guys need to think about what us comm turners would do if it went all BL!
My son and I both race, we have at least 2 cars each, that comes to me owning 6 brushed speedos an assortment of stock and 19t with a few mod motors thrown in, not to mention my inventory of brushes and equipment to go with then.
I should just dump them to run ROAR races and spend about $300 each for six cars to go BL?
I spend an average of $6K a year plus travel expenses and thats over the last 5 years.
I wont put that kind of another investment into BL and that would force me to quit RC racing.
You tell the hobby shops and tracks that I'm gone. How many new people would it take to replace me, and that replacement would be needed right now.
You guys need to think about what us comm turners would do if it went all BL!
I think it's a forgone conclusion that brushed is dying...it's just a matter of when we hold the funeral. I don't for a minute believe brushless is going to make racing any better than it's ever been, I'm just curious what the next excuse will be when Joe Blow is STILL getting lapped by Johnny Lightning every heat. Before it was easy...Joe's motors were tired, brush hung, etc. What excuses will he come up with now?
In real racing (especially through, say, the seventies--pre vintage racing boom) there's nothing as sad or worthless as last year's race car. Think about the brushed esc's the way Bruce McLaren thought about the M6's when the M8's came out.
OR...work with your local crew on a specialty class that makes use of the "incumbent" technologies. Here we've created our Vintage TA class which is BOOMING and I'm not sure we'll EVER have brushless motors in 'em. Best part is that high-end esc's are selling CHEAP!!
Chin up, old chap. It'll all be ok. I've got SOME investment into brushless but I've got a LOT more invested in brushed (9-10 VFS-1 Pro/Comp/Comp2 esc's, easily $1000 in motor equipment and supplies and easily another $500-1000 in motors. I'll get some use out of it all in our Vintage TA class.
Something else we've elected to do as a club is to postpone brushless adoption a full year from when ROAR adopts it. This will ease the transition a bit. It looks like it will be approved in the next week or so, in September we'll take a vote on acceptance for the 2009-2010 season. This will allow at least a year for folks to budget for and purchase BL systems.
01-12-2008, 06:25 AM
#820
And we do what with all of our brushed stuff?
My son and I both race, we have at least 2 cars each, that comes to me owning 6 brushed speedos an assortment of stock and 19t with a few mod motors thrown in, not to mention my inventory of brushes and equipment to go with then.
I should just dump them to run ROAR races and spend about $300 each for six cars to go BL?
I spend an average of $6K a year plus travel expenses and thats over the last 5 years.
I wont put that kind of another investment into BL and that would force me to quit RC racing.
You tell the hobby shops and tracks that I'm gone. How many new people would it take to replace me, and that replacement would be needed right now.
You guys need to think about what us comm turners would do if it went all BL!
My son and I both race, we have at least 2 cars each, that comes to me owning 6 brushed speedos an assortment of stock and 19t with a few mod motors thrown in, not to mention my inventory of brushes and equipment to go with then.
I should just dump them to run ROAR races and spend about $300 each for six cars to go BL?
I spend an average of $6K a year plus travel expenses and thats over the last 5 years.
I wont put that kind of another investment into BL and that would force me to quit RC racing.
You tell the hobby shops and tracks that I'm gone. How many new people would it take to replace me, and that replacement would be needed right now.
You guys need to think about what us comm turners would do if it went all BL!
It all sucks, but brushless motors and systems have been out several years now. How could anyone who races be completely blind to the fact that BL is here to stay and it's only a matter of time. I kicked myself for buying 3 stock motors and a speedo this year. Give it a chance and you'll kick yourself too.
01-12-2008, 07:30 AM
#821
Okay, this is the brushless motor thread, but I want to address something that's been annoying me. I constantly see posts that what we need in RC cars is more exposure and to get on TV.
Let me ask all of you, when was the last time you saw RC airplanes or helicopters on TV?
RC aircraft get much less coverage than we do, yet that hobby is at least 10 times bigger than ours, and the AMA isn't going anywhere.
...and now back to your regularly scheduled argument.
Let me ask all of you, when was the last time you saw RC airplanes or helicopters on TV?
RC aircraft get much less coverage than we do, yet that hobby is at least 10 times bigger than ours, and the AMA isn't going anywhere.
...and now back to your regularly scheduled argument.
01-12-2008, 08:24 AM
#822
Okay, this is the brushless motor thread, but I want to address something that's been annoying me. I constantly see posts that what we need in RC cars is more exposure and to get on TV.
Let me ask all of you, when was the last time you saw RC airplanes or helicopters on TV?
RC aircraft get much less coverage than we do, yet that hobby is at least 10 times bigger than ours, and the AMA isn't going anywhere.
...and now back to your regularly scheduled argument.
Let me ask all of you, when was the last time you saw RC airplanes or helicopters on TV?
RC aircraft get much less coverage than we do, yet that hobby is at least 10 times bigger than ours, and the AMA isn't going anywhere.
...and now back to your regularly scheduled argument.
01-12-2008, 09:12 AM
#825
Okay, this is the brushless motor thread, but I want to address something that's been annoying me. I constantly see posts that what we need in RC cars is more exposure and to get on TV.
Let me ask all of you, when was the last time you saw RC airplanes or helicopters on TV?
RC aircraft get much less coverage than we do, yet that hobby is at least 10 times bigger than ours, and the AMA isn't going anywhere.
...and now back to your regularly scheduled argument.
Let me ask all of you, when was the last time you saw RC airplanes or helicopters on TV?
RC aircraft get much less coverage than we do, yet that hobby is at least 10 times bigger than ours, and the AMA isn't going anywhere.
...and now back to your regularly scheduled argument.
does the AMA sanction racing? my understanding is that the vast majority of flying clubs just give them a place to park, a runway, and an open field to fly. Theres not much more to it but maybe mow it every couple of months?? the guys just talk the talk and show off their latest plane or the new revised bomb bay door servo setup. i have a feeling its kinda like the thursday night car show at the local choke n puke more than anything.
exposure is a many headed beast. i'll keep it short and simple. real estate/noise issues have driven tracks out of town or into really small tracks. r/c racing is not formatted well for live coverage or even tape edited coverage and in many places keeping a camera trained on a car long enough while its on the track to talk about it would drive most camera operators insane. even the camera crew would opt for slower motor rules lol.
at the chili-bowl this year there's a d/o r/c event with 8th scales. with a few nascar guys doing the bowl and possibly some r/c since they can do both in the same day, i wouldnt be surprised if there's atleast a clip of r/c during some tv time. the birds date change will also make it more accessible to guys competing at daytona that do r/c. dont be surprised if more of them show up, dragging camera crews with them. i dont know why nascar or other racing series haven't tried to promote r/c as a way to emulate your favorite sport/driver/etc. seems like a no brainer to me.
anyways, back to the bl/lipo theme.
