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Old 01-10-2008, 10:16 PM   #766
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I think having a debate about the 'motor' when it pertains to stock is the wrong way to look at it. I run offroad and before I had my 13.5 brushless, I was outrunning the 13.5 brushless at the end of the straights. The overall lap times were so close that it was totally up to the driver. The main issue with stock is batteries- If you have good batteries and a mediocre motor, you will still be competitive. If you have the best motor in the business and bad batteries, you are out to lunch. I can say right now, making the 17.5 in offroad stock would be a huge mistake, as 13.5's are already in most cars at most tracks (and a 17.5 would have trouble getting out of its own way!). I think another large mistake is putting separate classes in action. Having a 27t, a 13.5, and a 17.5 would dilute your classes so much that it is not even fun to race. Instead of trying to adapt to old technology (brushed), lets embrace the new technology (brushless) and move forward.
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Old 01-10-2008, 10:25 PM   #767
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DITTO!!!....Sorry Brushed historians, your time here on earth is done
Congrats JB....you had alot wrapped up in brushed, and turned over all the old technology to your higher power (who happens to like 5 min runs )

There are a couple of locals that like to kick the dog cuz I'm new to the sedan scene, but I've been running BL bashers 1 1/2 years with very few issues and tire smoking power...there's no looking back.
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Old 01-10-2008, 10:38 PM   #768
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Congrats JB....you had alot wrapped up in brushed, and turned over all the old technology to your higher power (who happens to like 5 min runs )

There are a couple of locals that like to kick the dog cuz I'm new to the sedan scene, but I've been running BL bashers 1 1/2 years with very few issues and tire smoking power...there's no looking back.
As a matter of fact, I still have about 20+ Stock motors left, 6-19t motors, a couple of mod motors AND prolly close to a $750 in assorted brushes-springs-etc. What do I do with all of that?!
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Old 01-10-2008, 11:24 PM   #769
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As another attendee of the first All-Brushless race (Novak), here's my $0.02:

I agree with Josh's suggestions regarding motor and class guidelines.

17.5 should be the new stock. With todays batteries, 17.5 motors bring the speed back down to what stock was about 3-4 years ago. No one was complaining that they were too fast then.

13.5 (at least the Novak and LRP) is more of a 19t brushed equivalent. Yes, you can find a good 19t that'll be faster than any 13.5, but not by much...maybe a tenth of a second on the track. This is the class that all the factory stock and other experienced racers should be running. It's fast enough to be fun, and anyone with some experience can hang on.

I will admit that at the end of the Novak Race weekend, 13.5 no longer felt anywhere near as fast to me as it once did. It felt like a good stock motor with fresh batteries used to. This is not to say that I think it should be faster.

Personally, I think 10.5 is a pointless class. It is so close to modified that it shouldn't be its own spec class. There was only a 2 tenths of a second difference between mod and 10.5 at the Novak. Yes, a few drivers were able to magically crack 9.5 second lap times out of their mod cars, with the 10.5 turn hotlap being 9.8. On the average though, most of the A-main mod lap times were around 9.9 or 10.0 and most of the A-main 10.5 lap times were around 10.1 or 10.2.

Modified was, to put it lightly, scary fast. It is so fast, that if it were not for the flowing layout of the Novak Race, most drivers would barely be able to hang on. Either a 4.5T limit or 5 cells is the way it should be. I'd be more in favor of the 4.5T limit because dumping becomes a large issue again without the extra cell. The speeds the cars are now discourages many from moving to modified and trying to compete.

Again, this is only my opinion.
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Old 01-10-2008, 11:46 PM   #770
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I deleted my post, as I mis-read an above post. Sorry.

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Old 01-11-2008, 12:58 AM   #771
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There are a lot of small track carpet guys posting here. This is normal as they are the most vocal....but please keep in mind that MOST ROAR members live and race in CA, FL, TX and other states where we run outdoors most of the year.

In FL we have at least 6 permanent asphalt tracks. The smallest is 120x60. The two tracks in Tampa are 170x50 and 185x85. These are normal size asphalt tracks for 1/10 sedans and 1/12th pan cars.

Many of the issues described in this thread are all about too much power for tracks that are 90x50 or smaller. Sure a 13.5 is fast on a typical 60x40 carpet track but on a bigger outdoor track all of the classes spread out becuase the Mod and 10.5 guys can use their power.

On these tracks Mod is about 2 laps faster than 19T. Thats how it was at the Reedy Race and the 2006 On Road Nats.

Running 13.5 as the 19T would be bad for all the asphalt guys. We like 19T and 10.5 is like 19T. We don't run 23T which is like 13.5.
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Old 01-11-2008, 01:37 AM   #772
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Originally Posted by Brian McGreevy View Post
As another attendee of the first All-Brushless race (Novak), here's my $0.02:

I agree with Josh's suggestions regarding motor and class guidelines.

17.5 should be the new stock. With todays batteries, 17.5 motors bring the speed back down to what stock was about 3-4 years ago. No one was complaining that they were too fast then.

13.5 (at least the Novak and LRP) is more of a 19t brushed equivalent. Yes, you can find a good 19t that'll be faster than any 13.5, but not by much...maybe a tenth of a second on the track. This is the class that all the factory stock and other experienced racers should be running. It's fast enough to be fun, and anyone with some experience can hang on.

I will admit that at the end of the Novak Race weekend, 13.5 no longer felt anywhere near as fast to me as it once did. It felt like a good stock motor with fresh batteries used to. This is not to say that I think it should be faster.

Personally, I think 10.5 is a pointless class. It is so close to modified that it shouldn't be its own spec class. There was only a 2 tenths of a second difference between mod and 10.5 at the Novak. Yes, a few drivers were able to magically crack 9.5 second lap times out of their mod cars, with the 10.5 turn hotlap being 9.8. On the average though, most of the A-main mod lap times were around 9.9 or 10.0 and most of the A-main 10.5 lap times were around 10.1 or 10.2.

Modified was, to put it lightly, scary fast. It is so fast, that if it were not for the flowing layout of the Novak Race, most drivers would barely be able to hang on. Either a 4.5T limit or 5 cells is the way it should be. I'd be more in favor of the 4.5T limit because dumping becomes a large issue again without the extra cell. The speeds the cars are now discourages many from moving to modified and trying to compete.

Again, this is only my opinion.
Since I was out of RC when 19T became a class I could never figure out why it even happened... Was it just something so guys had more than one class to run when it was an all TC race? It has always seemed pointless to me and I can't help but think it's the #1 reason why participation in mod keeps dwindling... Maybe I'm wrong, but wouldn't you give mod a shot if there was no 19T/10.5 to run in? I would imagine that a lot of other fast stock guys would have made the leap as well. There used to be no shame in being in the C-E mains in mod at a big race, but now you don't even see a C main in mod at many big races.

As far as your mod suggestions... I just don't think mod should ever be limited. If someone wants to take a 2.5 out there and thinks they can drive it, they should have the option. I think it was pretty clear at the Novak that you can only go so fast before you're hurting laptimes rather than helping, no matter how good of a driver you are. For now at least, it seems the cars and driver skill is the limiting factor. Which IMO is a good thing, I doubt we'll ever see some factory driver losing a big race because he doesn't have enough motor or battery. It's driver and car setup moreso than ever now.

Lastly, I just want to point out again. This isn't a response to you Brian as much as anyone that keeps pointing out laptimes from Novak. Yes the lap times were fairly close for various classes at Novak. But put those same cars on a longer more wide open track and the distance between the classes is more apparent. Of that .2-.3 difference between 10.5 and mod I would bet that over half of it was from the straight alone.
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Old 01-11-2008, 03:38 AM   #773
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People that are defending a particular motor they run at a particular place are sort of missing the point. If RoAR mandates the 17.5 as "stock", it doesn't mean at your local track 17.5 absolutly MUST be stock. Unless your running a ROAR event every Tuesday night, your track needs to run what the majority of it's local/regular racers want. If 10.5 is your slowest class because your track is huge, and 30 of you want it that way, great. Don't sweat it.
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Old 01-11-2008, 05:10 AM   #774
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My 2 cents...
17.5/27T - This should be the "rule book" stock class. Because there is still a large installed base of racers who want to run brushed motors. Their reasons, whether they enjoy tuning motors as part of the race experience or just being stubborn against change, is nobody's business. This is one of the things that makes the hobby enjoyable to them and they should not suddenly be outcast. I know this is a "one manufacturer bl" class but if adopted it will not stay that way for long. Also as bl technology advances it will not be long before a 17.5 motor will be faster than all but a well tuned 27T which will challenge these racers. It also gives the newcomer a CHOICE as to what technology they want to use as a start. Maybe their mentor is a brushed motor racer or they were handed down a car with a brushed sytem to get started. Regardless they should have a choice. Lastly it will give an opportunity for new and old to convert to bl in a format they are currently comfortable running in, speedwise. Please remember that just because ROAR makes this the stock class does not mean you HAVE to run this as your track's stock class.

13.5 - I don't think this should be the "rule book" stock class because of the sintered rotors bringing them so close to 19T lap times. This is most people's choice for stock because this is what people bought because of manufacturer claims. These claims were not made with the approval of the sanctioning body. NO one promised this would become the ROAR approved stock class motor. Any track can run this as a class if they choose to. They do not need ROAR's approval. And because so many racers have this system this is what will happen. There is nothing saying that this can not be a particular track's "stock" with 17.5/27T being sportsman. Whatever works for the racers there.

10.5/19T - Generally accepted by all. But as bl technology advances, that acceptance may not last.

MOD - Any brushed or bl motor. Easy enough.

ROAR rules are set so you know what to expect at sanctioned regional and national races. But are to used only as a GUIDELINE for local tracks. Local tracks are allowed to do whatever to cater to the racers that participate there.
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Old 01-11-2008, 06:57 AM   #775
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To everyone with an negitive opinion on the 17.5:

Who has actually tested one. I see people think its to slow as compared to a 27t
I have used one for several months along with Sportpak (he got one first), and after messin with gearing, the 17.5 was clearly faster than a 27t in TC. (have yet to do alittle testing in offroad). 12th was tried as well, and the potetial is there


By the way: in our local points series Sportpak and myself finished 1 and 2 in the points series (variation of rubber TC) against 13.5's. And the 10.5 class was running only .5 sec faster then the times with a 17.5
The proof is in the lap times people!
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Old 01-11-2008, 08:17 AM   #776
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To everyone with an negitive opinion on the 17.5:

Who has actually tested one. I see people think its to slow as compared to a 27t
I have used one for several months along with Sportpak (he got one first), and after messin with gearing, the 17.5 was clearly faster than a 27t in TC. (have yet to do alittle testing in offroad). 12th was tried as well, and the potetial is there


By the way: in our local points series Sportpak and myself finished 1 and 2 in the points series (variation of rubber TC) against 13.5's. And the 10.5 class was running only .5 sec faster then the times with a 17.5
The proof is in the lap times people!

My brotha speaks the truth. 17.5 brought the PAIN this fall!!
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Old 01-11-2008, 08:28 AM   #777
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Originally Posted by convikt View Post
To everyone with an negitive opinion on the 17.5:

Who has actually tested one. I see people think its to slow as compared to a 27t
I have used one for several months along with Sportpak (he got one first), and after messin with gearing, the 17.5 was clearly faster than a 27t in TC. (have yet to do alittle testing in offroad). 12th was tried as well, and the potetial is there


By the way: in our local points series Sportpak and myself finished 1 and 2 in the points series (variation of rubber TC) against 13.5's. And the 10.5 class was running only .5 sec faster then the times with a 17.5
The proof is in the lap times people!

What were you geard at? I may be getting one soon.
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Old 01-11-2008, 09:31 AM   #778
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In all my recollection, ROAR does not say "no you can not run this class anymore" or "shut off" or "turn off" or "quit" a class. A quick glance at the rule book and you'll see class rules in there from electric dirt oval and 10th scale pan cars and who else knows what.. 5th scale.. are there even 10 tracks in the country designed for 5th scale? Anyways - the point being is that ROAR didn't shut these classes down. People decided they wanted to do something else/followed another trend. Even at your local track if you look back at the last 3 years you will most likely see a trend between the various classes you normally run. Usually it starts off as Class 1 using X motor, then it kinda got popular so some guys wanted to run a little faster with Y motor, or some guys didnt want to be in the way so they ran a little slower with Z motor. Then somebody brought by another neato looking car and everyone thought it was cool so Class 2 started up with C motor and then they wanted to go faster or there was a need for a slower version. Then later on we remembered we have these other cars for a vintage class, or a powder puff class, or we just feel like running a class we ran 2 years ago because there a bunch of new guys that need to learn from a faster guy.
this will go the same way. People will jump on the bandwagon, then when the guys running brushes either get tired of spending money just to race toy cars on the weekend (because most weekends aren't a title race for 98% of us) or see how much more enjoyment the other people are having, they'll go out and get a system to race with the happening class. even if it is slightly slower/faster/whatever.

If you are in the 2% who sole purpose is to race for magazine covers, You should only be in the upper echelon of classes at each event (mod or unlimited/open or expert whatever).
If these upper class guys are more and more running slower classes so they can handle it and running less mod, then thats quite a sign that everything else below them needs to motor down also. -This doesn't mean you have to slow down, you can step up and the bottom class becomes slower. Basically its a shift in drivability and competitiveness. (this happens in relation to track size as well
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Old 01-11-2008, 10:45 AM   #779
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There are a lot of small track carpet guys posting here. This is normal as they are the most vocal....but please keep in mind that MOST ROAR members live and race in CA, FL, TX and other states where we run outdoors most of the year.

In FL we have at least 6 permanent asphalt tracks. The smallest is 120x60. The two tracks in Tampa are 170x50 and 185x85. These are normal size asphalt tracks for 1/10 sedans and 1/12th pan cars.

Many of the issues described in this thread are all about too much power for tracks that are 90x50 or smaller. Sure a 13.5 is fast on a typical 60x40 carpet track but on a bigger outdoor track all of the classes spread out becuase the Mod and 10.5 guys can use their power.

On these tracks Mod is about 2 laps faster than 19T. Thats how it was at the Reedy Race and the 2006 On Road Nats.

Running 13.5 as the 19T would be bad for all the asphalt guys. We like 19T and 10.5 is like 19T. We don't run 23T which is like 13.5.
Good point. I commented on this a couple of pages back. Carpet tracks are extremely small compared to asphalt.

17.5 - stock
13.5 - intermediate
10.5 - modified
open - factory modified

I know it is 4 classes, but it covers all bases.

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Old 01-11-2008, 11:08 AM   #780
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The whole idea is to make it where Joe Somebody and his son can feel like they have a class to race at a big event and want to show up and have fun. Right now you can't do that. Stock is so far from a beginner class it isn't even funny. That is what needs to be fixed. Any ideas?
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The way I look at this is, ROAR needs to make a decision that will allow BL in all classes, period. If it is decided that stock will stay "BR only", it will force newbies away from Stock. The next class up for BL would be 10.5/19T, and newbies will get highly discouraged in that class. A newbie does not want to break tons of parts and get their asses handed to them all the time, thus all the discussion about slowing down stock.

Something we all need to realize it that GEN-Y wants more instant gratification. Investing time and money into learning how to tune and rebuild BR motors just doesn't interest most of GEN-Y. This group need to be able to race on a single motor and battery all day. This is why we have seen LiPo and BL invigorating the hobby a little. But not having RULES to allow them across the board is still hampering the hobby.
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A point was made above.. we gotta realize there aren't enough racers out there now to sustain a hobby shop and track.. so we need to work on getting new. That is true. Very true.
Wow a very interesting read this thread, but lost in all the br vs bl and lipo vs nimh fuff is what is really wrong with the hobby today. For R/C to continue new blood must be found/brought in, this is the most crucial issue. This has to be the driving empahsis that ROAR should consider when making its rules for '08 and for the future. I know that Dawn is very aware of this problem and I can only hope that it plays a part in the discussions and rules that are decided upon; because if we don't find a way to bring in new racers none of this will matter in ten yrs time.

To this end if ROAR elliminates bl from stock thay will be putting the final nail in the coffin of R/C racing. Kids today just don't have the same interest in tunning/tweaking that racers had in the past, thats not good or bad just the way things have changed.
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