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Old 01-09-2008, 04:32 PM   #736
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i think we should out law brushed motors
and run just BL
mod (open)
10.5
17.5 (stock)
13.5 for those that think 10.5 is to fast and 17.5 is to slow.
and as for lipo have 2 classes
lipo and c cells this will help 1/12 stay alive.
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Old 01-09-2008, 04:44 PM   #737
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Originally Posted by Johnny Wishbone View Post
And yes, I read the other arguement about a heavier car breaks more parts, and I don't believe that should even be a consideration that ROAR should have to worry about.
Heavy Cars don't break parts, its the loose nuts behind the wheel that break parts.

I love math:
6-Cell NiMH pack. 22mm x 44mm x 132mm

2S2P 266650 pack. 26mm x 52mm x 130mm

Shocking....they are about 1/4" difference in size... Yes not an exact replacment, but darn close considering R/C hobby did not have to custom make these batteries.

So when you are talking about choosing a motor class, you have to consider what is powering those motors. Batteries will get better, the motors will get better, the cars will get better and that means faster SPEEDS overal in all racing classes.


So "youze" Americans stuff your 26650cells with Li-Ion 3.7V chemisty while the blokes across the ocean stuff their with 3.3V LiFePO4 chemistry. Perfect now the same car can be raced around the world and at home. No need for a EURO spec 5-Cell NiMH chassis and the American Spec 6-Cell chassis. If ROAR finds the speeds of the 3.7V cells too fast, well I guess they would just go to the lower voltage LiFePO4 cells.
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Old 01-09-2008, 04:51 PM   #738
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Originally Posted by wallyedmonds View Post
i think we should out law brushed motors
and run just BL
mod (open)
10.5
17.5 (stock)
13.5 for those that think 10.5 is to fast and 17.5 is to slow.
and as for lipo have 2 classes
lipo and c cells this will help 1/12 stay alive.
It is really quite simple..allow Lipo. If the minimum weight stays the same for all classes who cares which style you us. That fixes 1/12th and makes us Lipo guys in sedan happy. We do it at my local track (CEFX) and everyone seems to be quite happy with results.

Now back to the motor discussion.

After many pages it looks like 17.5, 13.5, 10.5 and Mod. That should make big outdoor track, off road and indoor carpet people all happy. If ROAR keeps the maximum number of classes the same as today for National events one of these motors will not be able to run. I assume that the type and length of track will determine that, the owner will know what works at his/her track.
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Old 01-09-2008, 05:26 PM   #739
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There are some other things beside motors and batteries. You have to set up your chassis, look for the right tires, inserts, shocks, etc,etc. Not everybody has 20 hours a week to tune up 5 brushed motors and cycle 8 batteries, and thats what lipo brushless technology is giving us.

The rules must be set now, so that we have an equal playing field for the next years. Motor designs and materials must be regularized, batteries capacity must be regularized.

No more motor gurus, no more battery gurus, because that can be very expensive in terms of necesary equipment.

Welcomed driving gurus and chassis gurus, because thats going to let us see new people in this hobby.
So taking out motor tuning is what everyone wants. So why is nitro so popular?
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Old 01-09-2008, 05:35 PM   #740
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So taking out motor tuning is what everyone wants. So why is nitro so popular?
It has it's own things.

Noise, speed, altitude.

Ever seen a noob fight getting his electric car started? Every part of the hobby has it's quirks.
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Old 01-09-2008, 05:44 PM   #741
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After seeing how close all the classes were at the Novak race (13.5, 10.5 and mod) I would recommend that you use 17.5 as your stock equivalent and limit them to 4 or 5 cells for sub-C's and 1 Cell Lipo. For 19T I would say the 13.5 with 5 or 6 cell sub C's and 2 cell Lipos. For mod anything with 6 cell sub-C's and 3 cell Lipos? Just a thought!!

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Old 01-09-2008, 05:46 PM   #742
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I'm assuming you mean off-road, I don't see much nitro onroad around here. in short it boils down to longer races and the slower reaction times that can be made up with money in motor and tires.
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Old 01-09-2008, 05:48 PM   #743
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Originally Posted by Casper View Post
So taking out motor tuning is what everyone wants. So why is nitro so popular?
Nitro is much more reliable than yesteryear's motors. Put gas in it and go. Yeah they need some tuning, but entry level nitro engines are usually gas up and go. I don't see any entry level hobbyiests tuning in one hour increments on the carb all day to get a small increase in performance. Bottom line- you don't hear a newby asking to by nitro to tune on it, they buy it to have fun and not think about it.
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Old 01-09-2008, 06:08 PM   #744
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Originally Posted by Casper View Post
So taking out motor tuning is what everyone wants. So why is nitro so popular?
Not to mention the Indi motor tuners who make their livelyhood tweeking and tuning motors for better performance. I for one have a builder I use and its unfair to see that builder (along with others out there) go out of business. Now, not everyone in the world will have a BL motor setup


Until you can side-by-side test a BL and BR motor to get an "exact" comparison, the statement of "this bl motor is close to X T motor" is ridiculous. How do they even rate the BL motor? w/ other motors it was all based on the winds of the motors.

I think they need to have classes with limits.

-The stock class should be STOCK BRUSHED motors.
-For the "stock" BL motor, they should have their own class
-19T Spec should be a Brushed motor
-Mod should include Brushed motors and BL motors up to X limit (forgive me I don't know HOW they rate BL motors)


As for the battery debate..... I'll leave that one be for a while.

I say we need to go back to 1200 SCR packs and 540 mabuchi motors!


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Old 01-09-2008, 06:49 PM   #745
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Originally Posted by MOmo View Post
Not to mention the Indi motor tuners who make their livelyhood tweeking and tuning motors for better performance. I for one have a builder I use and its unfair to see that builder (along with others out there) go out of business. Now, not everyone in the world will have a BL motor setup


Until you can side-by-side test a BL and BR motor to get an "exact" comparison, the statement of "this bl motor is close to X T motor" is ridiculous. How do they even rate the BL motor? w/ other motors it was all based on the winds of the motors.

I think they need to have classes with limits.

-The stock class should be STOCK BRUSHED motors.
-For the "stock" BL motor, they should have their own class
-19T Spec should be a Brushed motor
-Mod should include Brushed motors and BL motors up to X limit (forgive me I don't know HOW they rate BL motors)


As for the battery debate..... I'll leave that one be for a while.

I say we need to go back to 1200 SCR packs and 540 mabuchi motors!


MOmo


Brushless companies have employees that make thier livelyhood of this hobby also so thats irrelevant. I beleive that the tuners looking to stay in business are going adjust to the new technology.
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Old 01-09-2008, 07:52 PM   #746
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Brushless companies have employees that make thier livelyhood of this hobby also so thats irrelevant. I beleive that the tuners looking to stay in business are going adjust to the new technology.
Yep, and there are already mod motor winders that have moved on. Tuners are just one part of the equation and part of the evolution of our hobby. I'm sure there are companies that used to make sliderules for calculating too. I'm not dissing the tuners, just that like it or not most racers and hobbiests have already embraced brushless and keeping tuners around isn't going to slow that down.
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Old 01-09-2008, 08:28 PM   #747
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Ok, here's my brainfart for the night before I go to bed...

It was talked about by many that renaming the classes so that the motor doesn't name the class is a good idea. This is good. The basic rules between modified and stock and whatever in between are all basically the same (height, weight, tire type, etc). So, the only remaining things to be discussed are the actual motor rules per each class. The big problem pointed out earlier is that some tracks warrant using more power than others (carpet track vs. asphalt vs. indoor dirt vs. outdoor dirt). I am sure that those of us that race these other surfaces can realize that there isn't a one size fits all motor rule.

Class names, whatever they may be can all be appended by the host track with whatever motor limit they choose to use with whatever rules structure they want to attach it to. I.E.:

Novice 21.5
Sportsman 13.5, 27t
GT2 10.5, 19t
GT1, unlimited

This means that there is a set of rules for every unconceivable class that can be sanctioned by ROAR. The rules for the nationals are set, the rules for the regionals are set, and waivers can be applied for to any given event for any given track.

I still believe that the lowest class shouldn't be raced at the national level, rather, preserved for the newest in the ranks. The names chosen for the classes were only used as examples, and should be decided upon if this idea is adopted.

It doesn't marry the motor to a particular class, but it does tell people what motor has been decided just by a glance. The scenario that is most likely to happen is that the local racers will help make the decision as to what motors should be raced for the events based on what they know about their own track.

My local track has seen very little use for modified racing. It's just too small. However, on a trophy race day, it would probably do us good to have a novice type class to help the newer racers to know what it feels like to go to a bigger race. It also gives junior a reason to hang with dad, etc... If we all did this, it would actually give us 3 motor classes on a trophy race day, not that we need to dilute the field. But if it helps drag in new blood because they don't have to race with the crazys, good.
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Old 01-09-2008, 11:15 PM   #748
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Default Something to look at.

Something to look at. I thought about it, found some notes, made some additional tests, and here is something concrete to look at and compare. explanations are in the thread.

Mabuchi
21.5
19t money
8.5

http://www.rctech.net/forum/showthread.php?t=199935
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Old 01-10-2008, 10:03 AM   #749
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Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer View Post
Something to look at. I thought about it, found some notes, made some additional tests, and here is something concrete to look at and compare. explanations are in the thread.

Mabuchi
21.5
19t money
8.5

http://www.rctech.net/forum/showthread.php?t=199935

Very impressive list of data. I fear that the 17.5 is going to be hard to sell to people, let alone the 21.5. I have yet to run the 21.5, I enjoy the 17.5 in touring car. I like the idea of slowing things down, wish it wasn't so hard to convince people to do it. I like the idea of slowing it down and having much longer runs.
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Old 01-10-2008, 10:14 AM   #750
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I would love to see a 13.5 lipo foam class at the nationals this year.
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